How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

Gaudion M said:
Agree with the last bit but not the former.

They have made it very clear that they would welcome us rejoining. The EU is basically a trading club and the bigger the better. We are clearly worse of on the outside so we will either end up aligned or rejoining due to economic necessity. There is clear support for rejoining but it would need to be pretty much a slam dunk before anyone mentions the R word.
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Fair enough. Personally, I think there is a world of difference between warm words and actual negotiations and the EU terms for rejoining are going to fracture this country beyond repair.

Maybe I’m being too pessimistic on rejoining, but I do see a sweet spot where we are de facto members economically and absent politically. This allows people to say we are not in the EU, and still accrue some of the benefits over time.

I hope I’m wrong, but I just can’t see us at the heart of Europe or shaping its future. It’s simply beyond us and especially beyond our media and political class who are largely ignorant on European matters.
 
BobKowalski said:
Fair enough. Personally, I think there is a world of difference between warm words and actual negotiations and the EU terms for rejoining are going to fracture this country beyond repair.

Maybe I’m being too pessimistic on rejoining, but I do see a sweet spot where we are de facto members economically and absent politically. This allows people to say we are not in the EU, and still accrue some of the benefits over time.

I hope I’m wrong, but I just can’t see us at the heart of Europe or shaping its future. It’s simply beyond us and especially beyond our media and political class who are largely ignorant on European matters.
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Which is exactly what we should have fucking done in the first place once we decided to see this abomination through.
 
We need to start by rejoining the Single Market.
That means being a 'rule-taker', but that's what the idiots voted for, effectively.
As for being in the EU stopping 'socialism' - Denmark is in it, they are a lot more 'socialist' than we have ever been and as 'socialist' as I want us to be. I have no desire to recreate East Germany.
Our present path will make us a sort of capitalist version of East Germany, minus the social provision. Fuck that.

Once we have been in the SM a bit, we can think about deeper integration. AFAIAC we cannot integrate too deeply. I would take the Euro in a heartbeat. It's just a means of exchange. And increasingly, we don't see notes anyway, as everything is done by card. I would be quite happy with a USE (with full subsidiarity) but I don't think even the present EU will get there in my lifetime.
 
BrianW said:
We need to start by rejoining the Single Market.
That means being a 'rule-taker', but that's what the idiots voted for, effectively.
As for being in the EU stopping 'socialism' - Denmark is in it, they are a lot more 'socialist' than we have ever been and as 'socialist' as I want us to be. I have no desire to recreate East Germany.
Our present path will make us a sort of capitalist version of East Germany, minus the social provision. Fuck that.

Once we have been in the SM a bit, we can think about deeper integration. AFAIAC we cannot integrate too deeply. I would take the Euro in a heartbeat. It's just a means of exchange. And increasingly, we don't see notes anyway, as everything is done by card. I would be quite happy with a USE (with full subsidiarity) but I don't think even the present EU will get there in my lifetime.
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The public would be largely indifferent to the UK being a rule taker if it meant greater economic stability. The main opposition would come from the media and political class. It would be seen as ‘diminishing ourselves’, and that would never do. The UK has to be at the centre of world events for politicians to stride upon and the media to comment upon; and if that means we are all a little bit poorer, then that is a price they are happy for the voter to pay.

Reality will, I think, push us down this route, but there will be a lot of kicking and screaming.
 
BrianW said:
We need to start by rejoining the Single Market.
That means being a 'rule-taker', but that's what the idiots voted for, effectively.
As for being in the EU stopping 'socialism' - Denmark is in it, they are a lot more 'socialist' than we have ever been and as 'socialist' as I want us to be. I have no desire to recreate East Germany.
Our present path will make us a sort of capitalist version of East Germany, minus the social provision. Fuck that.

Once we have been in the SM a bit, we can think about deeper integration. AFAIAC we cannot integrate too deeply. I would take the Euro in a heartbeat. It's just a means of exchange. And increasingly, we don't see notes anyway, as everything is done by card. I would be quite happy with a USE (with full subsidiarity) but I don't think even the present EU will get there in my lifetime.
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Those left wing Brexit voters were a special kind of deluded. They thought they were somehow ushering in some kind of socialist utopia and all they ended up doing was delivering us the hardest right government in living memory.
 
BrianW said:
We need to start by rejoining the Single Market.
That means being a 'rule-taker', but that's what the idiots voted for, effectively.
As for being in the EU stopping 'socialism' - Denmark is in it, they are a lot more 'socialist' than we have ever been and as 'socialist' as I want us to be. I have no desire to recreate East Germany.
Our present path will make us a sort of capitalist version of East Germany, minus the social provision. Fuck that.

Once we have been in the SM a bit, we can think about deeper integration. AFAIAC we cannot integrate too deeply. I would take the Euro in a heartbeat. It's just a means of exchange. And increasingly, we don't see notes anyway, as everything is done by card. I would be quite happy with a USE (with full subsidiarity) but I don't think even the present EU will get there in my lifetime.
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Forgive my ignorance but what's a USE?
 
Some on here are blaming us FOCs for leave. I voted remain. The problem was that there was, and still is, a huge section of the population who are a bunch of ignorant loons who just wanted rid of foriners. These people would still vote leave and are still happy that we left no matter how bad it is. They don’t give a flying f..k.
 
Didsbury Dave said:
It's been worse than anybody even forecast, hasn't it? The economic, cultural and reputational damage were widely predicted, as was the risk to the Good Friday Agreement and the UK, but nobody warned us we'd end up with a government catastrophically unfit for purpose.

Brexit has broken Britain. I still can't believe it.
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I have never in my lifetime seen a policy, plan, whatever you want call it, deliver so many polar opposites to those which were promised.
Even now we can see the long-term damage being done economically, politically and reputationaly which we will be feeling for generations, and still there are people standing by its simple banality and claiming success.
It is destroying our country.
 
Yeah, and I wouldn't take their responses now as particularly truthful.

I knew someone who voted out, ran the 'will of the people' line, forwarded on the 'Final Countdown' video (We're leaving together), raised concerns over the amount of Polish kids in his sons class (in a town in North Notts)....but now apparently (given the clusterfuck) voted to reform the EU not actually leave.
 
somapop said:
Yeah, and I wouldn't take their responses now as particularly truthful.

I knew someone who voted out, ran the 'will of the people' line, forwarded on the 'Final Countdown' video (We're leaving together), raised concerns over the amount of Polish kids in his sons class (in a town in North Notts)....but now apparently (given the clusterfuck) voted to reform the EU not actually leave.
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So he voted Leave not to leave or assumed that upon leaving we would be so influential outside the bloc we could then influence its reform ?? And which part of the Leave side put that forward as a possibility?
 
bluethrunthru said:
So he voted Leave not to leave or assumed that upon leaving we would be so influential outside the bloc we could then influence its reform ?? And which part of the Leave side put that forward as a possibility?
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Well exactly.
It's little more than a feeble get out clause that doesn't make any sense.
 
bluethrunthru said:
This this and this - why on earth does anyone think the EU want a re-run? They have us in a perfect position to humiliate and exploit - and its a position we chose for ourselves - fucking madness
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Well one of the preconditions probably would be a fixed commitment for a certain number of years.
 
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