How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
I've long said it's a shame a EU army of liberation can't invade, free us, and send the independence crowd to the gallows/gas chamber striking a libertarian blow on behalf of civilised humans everywhere. Sadly the EU like the league of nations and the UN only seems supported by some nations when it suits them.
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Well, it's no use waiting for a Marching Through Georgia moment as it will not come. The EU are not a tyranny, not the USSR, but a voluntary association of sovereign states.

The EU is an imperfect organisation, but it is a lot nearer to perfection and a lot less corrupt, than the UK. Why, we don't even have a codified constitution! And what 'constitution' we have can be modified by Parliament on a bare majority, which makes it worthless. I pass lightly over the unrepresentative nature of our so-called voting system, which gives a minority a majority in Parliament. Over the unelected (and deeply corrupt) House of Lords and the unelected Head of State.

All this Brexit process has done as far as I am concerned is destroy my belief in the legitimacy of the UK state. I also reject our version of alleged 'democracy' on the grounds it is not democratic and never has been.
 
BrianW said:
The European Court of Human Rights has fuck all to do with the EU. It was established in the 1950s, Churchill was a key influence, we, the UK, took a leading part in setting it up and every European country bar Belarus and Russia subscribe to it. That last bit, in itself, should say it all.

The reason you have an international court for such things is that WW2 taught us that individual states can and do lose their moral compass. There is nothing special about the UK that makes us somehow above such things. The truth is that the UK's human rights record is piss poor by European standards. I only wish I could say that we were special, that we would never, ever abuse human beings. But I am not that fucking naive. I do not trust the Tories - or indeed the other Westminster parties - one fucking inch with human rights. Because in their hearts, they are despots. Tin-pot Henry VIIIs who abhor any check on their power. Any check at all. Who knows where that might lead if the bridle was taken off?

The UK is such a corrupt state, so deeply corrupt it passes all understanding, that any restraint put upon it by external, civilised humans can only be a good thing.
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Well obviously if you have such a low opinion of your fellow countrymen then you will want the EU overseeing everything. However, I don't think we are better than anyone else but nor do I think anyone is better than us. We will be just fine out of the EU.
 
Palerider said:
Well obviously if you have such a low opinion of your fellow countrymen then you will want the EU overseeing everything. However, I don't think we are better than anyone else but nor do I think anyone is better than us. We will be just fine out of the EU.
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deluded
 
bluethrunthru said:
1/ Independence from what? ;We are still part of the Continent of Europe you cannot change geography. It doesn't matter what laws of standards we decide for ourselves if we want to trade an an independent nation we will still have to comply with the laws and standards of those who we wish to trade with.
2/ Self reliance - going well - 1m+ jobs going spare and UK productivity tanking - sweat shops are not a given - the UK could enforce its own laws to pay people a proper wage for a days work but we keep voting in a Govt who says thats bad.
3/ ECHR - you have already been asked - which of your Human Rights do you think you don't need? Is it the freedom to associate with whomever you would want to for whatever reasons you want to? Maybe you'd be OK if you were arrested and imprisoned without trial? Pray enlighten me.
4/ The status quo has been broken in the past its just that the vast majority of voters are working class yet somehow despite not being sheep they are somehow led back into voting against their own interests - its uncanny. When more working class people get access to higher education they allow themselves to be persuaded that is a bad thing because all their offspring will do is a degree in David Beckham studies so they belittle FE - the red wall is being spoken about now because its crumbling and going back to Labour because they have seen through the Levelling Up lie.
5/ Global Trade - we had that via complex agreement negotiated often by us within the EU that we then turned away from. Some of the deals we are looking to do we could do as EU members anyway. To trade you need to trade with countries that are in trading blocs - you don't just knock on someones door and ask "do you want to buy some widgets" If we join the much vaunted TPP we get a fraction of what the EU gave us in turnover but from the far side of the world - and - so you understand - our membership would be an associateship so we would take their rules and standards but not have a vote on them.
6/ wage lift - you are taking the piss now aren't you - you have seen the industrial action in the public and private sector mostly taken over too low wages and poor wage offers mostly but not exclusively by organised working class labour?
7/ creativity and innovation - hows that going - British Volt? Maybe BMW moving MINI EV production inside the EU? All our creative industries are locked out of touring the EU and most of the world thanks to Brexit.

I'll leave those truths there in response as I am sure that covers it
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I think you are another one where the real problem is that you do not like or trust your fellow countrymen so obviously welcome EU regulations etc. I don't feel that way and therefore we disagree at at a fundamental level. Yes, we can and should be doing better but any improvement needs to come from ourselves not someone else.
 
BrianW said:
Well, it's no use waiting for a Marching Through Georgia moment as it will not come. The EU are not a tyranny, not the USSR, but a voluntary association of sovereign states.

The EU is an imperfect organisation, but it is a lot nearer to perfection and a lot less corrupt, than the UK. Why, we don't even have a codified constitution! And what 'constitution' we have can be modified by Parliament on a bare majority, which makes it worthless. I pass lightly over the unrepresentative nature of our so-called voting system, which gives a minority a majority in Parliament. Over the unelected (and deeply corrupt) House of Lords and the unelected Head of State.

All this Brexit process has done as far as I am concerned is destroy my belief in the legitimacy of the UK state. I also reject our version of alleged 'democracy' on the grounds it is not democratic and never has been.
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There is more to come -UK politicians, political staffers, lobbyists, civil servants and their families have allegedly been involved in corruption, money laundering, and organised crime involving the states of Qatar and Mauritania and Morocco in exchange for influence. Also,the UK govt regularly “signs off”—in its own words—the reliability of its accounts themselves, and has given them a clean bill of health for the last decade.It has consistently found errors in how the money is paid out since it began giving opinions in 1995, for the 1994 UK financial year.

The exception to this is the most recent year. The latest report has, for the first time ever, found a significant amount of payments to be largely error-free.
 
Palerider said:
I think you are another one where the real problem is that you do not like or trust your fellow countrymen so obviously welcome EU regulations etc. I don't feel that way and therefore we disagree at at a fundamental level. Yes, we can and should be doing better but any improvement needs to come from ourselves not someone else.
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long way of writing " I don't know what the fuck I am on about" is that.

I answered your points with observable facts but you can't engage in meaningful political discourse because your beliefs are founded upon a tissue of lies and as ever you cannot admit you were wrong on any point.
 
Palerider said:
Well obviously if you have such a low opinion of your fellow countrymen then you will want the EU overseeing everything. However, I don't think we are better than anyone else but nor do I think anyone is better than us. We will be just fine out of the EU.
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Well, we aren't are we?

And under your system (not in the ECHR) there is no protection whatever for our rights and liberties.

Because under our crazy electoral system, 35% of voters (located in the right places, not evenly spread across the UK) can elect a majority government. And that government can then do anything. There are no effective checks and balances. Our constitution, such as it is, can be amended by a 326/324 vote in the Commons. Take away the ECHR, and whatever they then vote for is the law.

The law is not about morals. It is what it is. Evil governments can pass evil laws. We have a burning example still in the living memory of very old people. Adolf and his mates were elected. Everything they did was legal under German law.

Far-fetched? Couldn't happen here? That's what they said. And we have seen how demagogues can gain sway in this country and how easily they can lead a huge chunk of the population into folly.

So yes, I would prefer the supervision of the ECHR. And preferably the EU too, even though, when it comes down to it, its powers over the sovereign states that form its membership are strictly limited by the agreed treaties. Because people are sometimes cunts, and very often they do not think things through. It's too easy to inflame people with headlines and conspiracy theories. And our political class is vile, among the worst in the 'democratic' world, while we also have a media that is wholly unchecked and run for the benefit of plutocratic, criminal tax exiles.

On top of all that, Brexit has fucked our economy. That's why you're paying more tax for less, and why that will be a continuing aspect of your life.

Does that answer your question?
 
bluethrunthru said:
long way of writing " I don't know what the fuck I am on about" is that.

I answered your points with observable facts but you can't engage in meaningful political discourse because your beliefs are founded upon a tissue of lies and as ever you cannot admit you were wrong on any point.
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But you are not interested in debate, you want to prove your moral and intellectual superiority. I stated initially that you either 'get' or 'don' t get' independence. You do not get it, so you do not understand why it is important to me. If I tell you what I consider the funniest joke I have ever heard and you don't laugh would it change things if I explained why I found it funny?
 
Palerider said:
I think you are another one where the real problem is that you do not like or trust your fellow countrymen so obviously welcome EU regulations etc. I don't feel that way and therefore we disagree at at a fundamental level. Yes, we can and should be doing better but any improvement needs to come from ourselves not someone else.
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Exactly. I don't like or trust my fellow countrymen who are currently this shambolic, corrupt government, elected by far fewer people than voted for Brexit.
 
Palerider said:
But you are not interested in debate, you want to prove your moral and intellectual superiority. I stated initially that you either 'get' or 'don' t get' independence. You do not get it, so you do not understand why it is important to me. If I tell you what I consider the funniest joke I have ever heard and you don't laugh would it change things if I explained why I found it funny?
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No - its you who doesn't get Independence as it fits in the wider world - you have a concept in your head but that is NOT a concept you can apply to the real world - its a fantasy that you cannot back up
 
BrianW said:
Well, we aren't are we?

And under your system (not in the ECHR) there is no protection whatever for our rights and liberties.

Because under our crazy electoral system, 35% of voters (located in the right places, not evenly spread across the UK) can elect a majority government. And that government can then do anything. There are no effective checks and balances. Our constitution, such as it is, can be amended by a 326/324 vote in the Commons. Take away the ECHR, and whatever they then vote for is the law.

The law is not about morals. It is what it is. Evil governments can pass evil laws. We have a burning example still in the living memory of very old people. Adolf and his mates were elected. Everything they did was legal under German law.

Far-fetched? Couldn't happen here? That's what they said. And we have seen how demagogues can gain sway in this country and how easily they can lead a huge chunk of the population into folly.

So yes, I would prefer the supervision of the ECHR. And preferably the EU too, even though, when it comes down to it, its powers over the sovereign states that form its membership are strictly limited by the agreed treaties. Because people are sometimes cunts, and very often they do not think things through. It's too easy to inflame people with headlines and conspiracy theories. And our political class is vile, among the worst in the 'democratic' world, while we also have a media that is wholly unchecked and run for the benefit of plutocratic, criminal tax exiles.

On top of all that, Brexit has fucked our economy. That's why you're paying more tax for less, and why that will be a continuing aspect of your life.

Does that answer your question?
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What if the ECHR is corrupt? I'm joking a little! Somewhere along the way you have to trust someone surely, you are saying you do not trust Parliament but would accept the ECHR's judgement. I'm saying we could replace the ECHR with British Judges.
 
Palerider said:
What if the ECHR is corrupt? I'm joking a little! Somewhere along the way you have to trust someone surely, you are saying you do not trust Parliament but would accept the ECHR's judgement. I'm saying we could replace the ECHR with British Judges.
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who three years ago were headlined as the Enemy of the People?

Who elects British judges?
 
bluethrunthru said:
No - its you who doesn't get Independence as it fits in the wider world - you have a concept in your head but that is NOT a concept you can apply to the real world - its a fantasy that you cannot back up
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What's your view on Scottish and Irish independence? Do you think the USA regret going it alone?
 
bluethrunthru said:
who three years ago were headlined as the Enemy of the People?

Who elects British judges?
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Presumably somebody appoints or elects every single judge? Are you saying that judges are not biased or prejudiced? Judges are human beings and will have all the human failings of you and me.
 
Palerider said:
What if the ECHR is corrupt? I'm joking a little! Somewhere along the way you have to trust someone surely, you are saying you do not trust Parliament but would accept the ECHR's judgement. I'm saying we could replace the ECHR with British Judges.
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And we've never had politically-biased judges in the UK?
 
bluethrunthru said:
who three years ago were headlined as the Enemy of the People?

Who elects British judges?
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They're appointed by a committee that's - so far - independent of government (and appointment of the chair of the committee is after a due process that's reasonably transparent).

But if a corrupt government regards judges who declare their laws as unlawful as "lefty", who knows what might happen?

 
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