How to P"""" off the French

[The perfect fumble]

I fully agree the sub delivery date is irrelevant. Upgrading to modern tech and capability isn’t. This isn’t about 12 subs, no one cares - the US could have added them to the region if that was the only objective - it’s about building cooperation, alliances and a message

I certainly don’t think the world wants to fall out with China it just wants it to operate in the frame of international norms. ie China is not a threat to world peace but to world order. The Chinese for their part probably don’t see they are doing much wrong.

Regionally is where we see this manifest. Unfortunately here China isn’t really exerting soft power anymore, it’s not benign and has increased military spending again. They’ve acted with increasing hostility towards their neighbours particularly in relation to the the land grab/island building in territorial waters of others, sure they placate them with loans which dampens the protests but ultimately they are denying those states and those people of income from their untapped resources that now “belong” to China. Further they’ve tried to extend China’s territorial waters by building islands to both increase their resource claims and deny international shipping access. Just because it’s an invasion by money and engineering rather than guns, doesn’t make it less of an invasion. Words aka diplomacy has been tried but China doesn’t listen to the words of the international community and it’s promises aren’t worth a lot, the only thing left is to see if China pays attention to strength. I don’t even “blame” China here, what they are doing makes sense for them - and it’s a novel approach. But unless we are going to rip up world order and go back to the days of conquest of the weak by the rich/powerful and empires then we need to act.

If history has taught us anything then it is doing nothing is usually the worst option of all. Had the allies not shied away from taking more robust steps to kerb Hilters ambitions during the 1930s things may well have turned out differently. We’re nowhere near that here but making China’s stop and take stock of its ambition with strategic alliances seems the most sensible option for now. It’s important to not skew alliance strength too much against China as they will perceive it as unnecessarily aggressive (eg adding Japan to the alliance)

"(China) land grab/island building in territorial waters"

You don't say!

Today, there are more than 400 American military bases around China with missiles, bombers, warships, and nuclear weapons.

Let's just say we disagree and leave it at that.

 

[west didsblue]

"(China) land grab/island building in territorial waters"

You don't say!

Today, there are more than 400 American military bases around China with missiles, bombers, warships, and nuclear weapons.

Let's just say we disagree and leave it at that.

That picture sort of reinforces the view that our own involvement is purely a PR exercise from the Americans and Australians point of view, and from our point of view an attempt to ingratiate ourselves with the other two AUKUS members because we need all the friends we can get. We can't add much strategically and the US have more than enough submarine tech to support Australia's naval ambitions.

 

[BobKowalski]

No I just pulled you up on your “2040 at the earliest if everything goes to plan which it won’t” nonsense. Every rationale you put forward to support your stance was able to be rebutted. We can do it again all day today if you like

If you like. I was going to wait until 2040, bump the thread and declare victory.

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

At this point, one wonders wtf is wrong with the French. Yes, they were slighted in a hoped-for nuclear sub accord with Australia... and were caught off guard. But withdrawing ambassadors in response?...
===
Obviously, withdrawal of ambassadors very much hurts Biden - and helps... well, Donald Trump. Does France really want Trump to win the 2024 election? They're behaving very much so.

 

[west didsblue]

At this point, one wonders wtf is wrong with the French. Yes, they were slighted in a hoped-for nuclear sub accord with Australia... and were caught off guard. But withdrawing ambassadors in response?...
===
Obviously, withdrawal of ambassadors very much hurts Biden - and helps... well, Donald Trump. Does France really want Trump to win the 2024 election? They're behaving very much so.

Firstly, the US electorate won't give a shit.
Secondly, it will be ancient history in 3 years.
The second point would only be relevant if the first point wasn't true.

 

[JASR]

Chinese naval building is off the scale:
Eg in last 8 years

12 amphibious warfare, to 42
25 destroyers, to total 39
14 frigates, to total 55
72 corvettes built in 8 years (no corvettes older than that)

List of ships of the People's Liberation Army Navy - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

still not as many as the US (in total), and lacking in numbers for aircraft carriers and cruisers. But the US is spread across all oceans, whereas by and large the Chinese are just in the pacific. A show of force within the reach of mainland China airforce would be reasonably balanced level of forces (China vs US, Japan, Taiwan etc)

 

[metalblue]

If you like. I was going to wait until 2040, bump the thread and declare victory.

I’ll be shouting at the moon in my slippers by then mate and won’t know what day of the week it is let alone remember this thread

 

[MillionMilesAway]

With reference to the thread title, this may be Exhibit A:
“I just think it’s time for some of our dearest friends around the world to prenez un grip about this and donnez-moi un break."

 

[i kne albert davy]

Chinese naval building is off the scale:
Eg in last 8 years

12 amphibious warfare, to 42
25 destroyers, to total 39
14 frigates, to total 55
72 corvettes built in 8 years (no corvettes older than that)

List of ships of the People's Liberation Army Navy - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

still not as many as the US (in total), and lacking in numbers for aircraft carriers and cruisers. But the US is spread across all oceans, whereas by and large the Chinese are just in the pacific. A show of force within the reach of mainland China airforce would be reasonably balanced level of forces (China vs US, Japan, Taiwan etc)

To be fair if you have a manufacturing industry that generates vast surplus's then you need something to spend it on, we use to do it The USA still does. China having a totalitarian state were always going to spend on munitions it's a cock waving competition.

 

[BobKowalski]

Macron and Biden have kissed and made up...