I am voting Labour next ....talk me out of it.

[BrianW]

Like I said - it's complex.

Our society is built on law, and law is very, very complicated. For example, remember Alex Ferguson getting off the road traffic ticket? Most of us wouldn't, but he employed an expensive lawyer and a loophole was found. No matter how carefully Parliament attempts to frame a law, they are subject to judicial review and to lawyers questioning particular cases in court. It's the nature of the beast. The alternative is an arbitrary system where the Fuhrer makes decrees and they are unquestioningly implemented. None of us would like that in practice, trust me.

Politicians try to attract votes. Our shitty voting system and the low education standards of the population lead to them tending to offer slogans rather than well-thought-through policies. Ban this. Slash that. All are very simplistic, but when you come to implement them, it is much, much more complicated.

It is simply inconceivable to me that if there was a simple, straightforward solution to this problem the government would not have implemented it. Ergo, there isn't. And if it's complicated by a whole host of issues - which I strongly suspect it is - a solution, if one exists, will take time and cost money. Probably plenty of both.

For what it's worth, I doubt that issue can be sorted in any way without close cooperation with the EU. This is anathema to the Tories and to many of their supporters, but it's a reality that will have to be faced. 'Taking back control' was an illusion, indeed a con. You can only ever control one side of a border, at best. To control two, you need the help and cooperation of the neighbours. To a point the Tories have tacitly accepted this, which is why they are paying £££££££s to France. But a more grown-up and comprehensive package is needed. And, shock horror, we may have to enter a sort of partnership, and as part of the deal accept that a proportion of these people will have to come here.

 

[El_george]

It is simply inconceivable to me that if there was a simple, straightforward solution to this problem the government would not have implemented it.

I think they want to, the trouble is one simple, straighforward solution would be to 'push-back' the boats. But Border Force (when it was their job) refused to and got the Union involved:

"The Public and Commercial Services union (PCS) has joined Care4Calais and one other charity in their legal fight to prevent the pushback plans from going ahead. PCS says it has not ruled out taking steps to disrupt the policy if the home secretary insists on proceeding with it."

from - https://www.theguardian.com/politic...fight-to-block-to-priti-patels-pushback-plans

Then - and this is what I really don't understand, in 2022 the Navy was given the job, but the Ministry of Defence said (to Priti Patel) "...the Royal Navy and Marines will not be turning back migrants who had crossed the Channel and sending them back to France when they take over the operational control of crossings this month.

The MoD said they would not be enforcing the Home Secretary's push back policy - to turn migrant boats back towards France - after Ms Patel said one of its ministers was wrong to rule out the Navy's involvement in the policy."

from - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...Marines-NOT-send-Channel-migrants-France.html

So basically, different government departments are fighting against each other and the end result: almost 46,000 people made it across the channel in 2022. That is not achieving the promise they made: "control of our borders".

Now in relation to this actual thread, this abject failure (and the Rwanda flight too) would suggest I am not talking the person who wrote the op out of voting Labour, but the problem is: what is their policy on migration?

 

[oldius]

I find Rayner to be a breath of fresh air, willing to call out the government on a whole host of issues that others dare not speak of. In actual fact, that makes her a very valuable asset and, I suspect, a vote winner: she is now saying what the majority of the country think, whereas she may well have once been decried as a loony.

BTW, immigration is not the only issue. Personally, I hope Labour's policy on migration is to re-open the safe and legal routes of entry and to then properly process claims.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

I find Rayner to be a breath of fresh air, willing to call out the government on a whole host of issues that others dare not speak of. In actual fact, that makes her a very valuable asset and, I suspect, a vote winner: she is now saying what the majority of the country think, whereas she may well have once been decried as a loony.

BTW, immigration is not the only issue. Personally, I hope Labour's policy on migration is to re-open the safe and legal routes of entry and to then properly process claims.

I like them.

 

[BrianW]

A simple, straightforward solution to crime would be to shoot all criminals dead.

However, it would be unlawful, lead to gross injustices and abuse, and after a short time the public would be outraged. We would also become a pariah state and sooner or later our leaders would be in jail for crimes against humanity.

That's why simple, straightforward solutions rarely work out in practice, especially when deployed against complex issues.

 

[bluethrunthru]

even Rod Stewart is switching allegience

 

[Rascal]

OK,

Since 1971 I have always voted for the Conservative party, a Margaret Thatcher fan (Although she did have her faults), but I am now totally disillusioned with this shower of s

t who go from crisis to crisis,( I do have a certain amount of sympathy with them because they did have covid19 to deal with, which must have been a nightmare)...but now I have had enough.

Liz Truss and that idiotic chancellor was the last straw.

Now I know Starmer is rather bland and doesn't seem to come up with any policies. just criticise the Tories all the time and I used to hate Angela Rayner but I am coming round to thinking she is OK, talks a lot of sense, even though she lets her mouth get carried away a bit, but time for a new broom?

Thoughts?

First off take a good look at yourself and then think for all those years you voted Tory what have they ever done for the working class in this country, Thanks to you and your ilk voting for these people we now have a country that is an absolute shit show. The NHS is failing, the national infrastructure is falling to bits, the education system is not fit for purpose, inequality is growing, we have foodbanks, warm banks and record numbers of homeless. Our armed forces have been decimated, we no longer manufacture things, our towns are like wastelands, the welfare state is no longer a safety net.

If you value any of the above then you can not vote Tory.

I will not however talk you out of voting for Labour even if I can not vote for Labour. Labour is now a right wing party, not right wing in terms of the Tories but right wing run in terms of the Left wing spectrum. Starmer and his acolytes stopped the UK from having a Socialist Government and I will never forgive that. The question then becomes is the right wing of the Labour party more suitable to run the country than the right wing of the Tory party? Because each of the main two parties have historically been broad churches that encompass many view points on the left and the right. That of course means the left wings of both traditions are marginalised. Where are the One Nation Tories?, the Socialists have been exterminated in the Labour party.

The Overton window has moved ever rightwards since the Thatcher years, the Social consensus developed after WW2 has been destroyed and we have a vacuum. That vacuum has been filled with Libertarian nonsense which thankfully was exposed when the disastrous Truss made a complete bollox of the economy.

Labour has not learnt though, it still believes that centrism is the way forward, it is still in awe of Blair and is still in thrall to Capitalism, the very system that has all but destroyed our country over the last 50 years. That is why leaving the EU was so important, we had to escape from the Neo Liberal club, not to become the ERG fantasy of a Singapore on Thames but to become a Social Democracy. Very few people who voted for Brexit voted for the ERG fantasy, they voted for a return of the nation state. A nation state that does look after a person from cradle to grave. Labour are missing this maybe by accident but probably by design because they are now a party of Capital not of Labour.

By all means vote Labour, just pray they are not as bad as this Tory shit show. Do not be surprised if little changes though as Starmer is a known liar, Reeves is a charlatan and what is left of the Socialists have been marginalised.

 

[Gray]

OK,

Since 1971 I have always voted for the Conservative party, a Margaret Thatcher fan (Although she did have her faults), but I am now totally disillusioned with this shower of s

t who go from crisis to crisis,( I do have a certain amount of sympathy with them because they did have covid19 to deal with, which must have been a nightmare)...but now I have had enough.

Liz Truss and that idiotic chancellor was the last straw.

Now I know Starmer is rather bland and doesn't seem to come up with any policies. just criticise the Tories all the time and I used to hate Angela Rayner but I am coming round to thinking she is OK, talks a lot of sense, even though she lets her mouth get carried away a bit, but time for a new broom?

Thoughts?

I am all for giving Labour a chance, they will cock it up as they always do, and the merry-go-round will continue.

Blair was only a pink Labour leader in fact probably purple.

A Corbyn type leader of the Labour Party is doomed to failure.

 

[Kirkstall Blue]

Yes it’s not going to happen , was just throwing it out there that they should be considered by many more simply for being the most pro EU party at the moment and I’m sure that’s the number 1 priority for many voters

Lib Dems set out roadmap to rejoin EU single market and ‘end petty Brexit squabbles’

The proposed policy would ultimately reinstate free movement and trade

www.independent.co.uk

It’s not going to happen the EU will not let us rejoin without a large cash injection dwarfing the amount we were paying before if we are finding it tough now then the EU would make us reapply and we would lose the 10 billion rebate we used to get.
In the meantime how would we ever get back the privatisation of our industries that the Tories have damaged the only thing that matters is to get the thieving politicians out and avoid splitting the vote.

It maybe a long term aim but only when Labour are a couple of years in Government then maybe, probably to late to have a common market deal it’s a closed shop

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

I'm from the USA - as I understand it from my precursory reading of Wikipedia - Labour is centrist left. Sounds good to me. Vote for them.

If there's some downside that I'm unaware of - please feel free to educate this Yank.