Ice Hockey | Player arrested for manslaughter following death of Adam Johnson (P18)

Alan Harper's Tash said:
Does it matter if he did?

I guess we’re back to when does an accident become involuntary manslaughter.
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There have been cases of people done for manslaughter for losing control of a boat, a car, making bad calls to go out in severe weather etc. I don't know how low the bar is, but as others point out, it seems a lot lower than 'intent'.

edit. it is not an accident in an everyday context however. No idea if that comes into it at all though.
 
Coatigan said:
How do you know, just out of interest? I am not arguing the opposite btw, I honestly don't know or even have a view that I feel I can back with any seriousness.

As you say elsewhere, might not make much if any difference to the outcome, of a manslaughter charge.
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Because he cause the contact with the 3rd player for one and it’s no way a natural position for his left leg to go to after that initial contact. He left one on him.

As an example, I know when I watch rugby, having played rugby, when people are leaving one on someone. Same in football. The difference is that in those sports, people aren’t wearing razor sharp blades on their feet and even then, no one has ever taken a shoulder charge they’ve initiated (ie it wasn’t sudden and unexpected for him) and raised their outward leg in that direction, at that angle, to gain balance.
 
Alan Harper's Tash said:
Does it matter if he did?

I guess we’re back to when does an accident become involuntary manslaughter.
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Yes it does. An accident isn't manslaughter if there was no negligence or recklessness.

A boxer could commit Manslaughter or even murder if he punches an opponent in the neck or back of the head.

If he meant to use his skates to cause serious injury then he's committed a murder.
 
SWP's back said:
Because he cause the contact with the 3rd player for one and it’s no way a natural position for his left leg to go to after that initial contact. He left one on him.

As an example, I know when I watch rugby, having played rugby, when people are leaving one on someone. Same in football. The difference is that in those sports, people aren’t wearing razor sharp blades on their feet and even then, no one has ever taken a shoulder charge they’ve initiated (ie it wasn’t sudden and unexpected for him) and raised their outward leg in that direction, at that angle, to gain balance.
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Fair on his initiating the charge. Fyi there are people, former professionals, that argue people lift their hind legs on ice at speed when falling over. How true or not that is, I have no idea and I genuinely don't know enough to even form my own view let alone argue anything. Hence just asking and taking on board.
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
Yes it does. An accident isn't manslaughter if there was no negligence or recklessness.

A boxer could commit Manslaughter or even murder if he punches an opponent in the neck or back of the head.

If he meant to use his skates to cause serious injury then he's committed a murder.
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If a boxer hits an opponent in the back of the head because his opponent moves into an unexpected position, is that still negligent or reckless?

Like everything in life, there is nuance that needs to be applied and I‘m happy for the legal proceedings to play out. I’m not 100% either way.
 
Alan Harper's Tash said:
If a boxer hits an opponent in the back of the head because his opponent moves into an unexpected position, is that still negligent or reckless?
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What's the relevance? The hockey player that died was in natural position going towards goal.

The arrested player was in position of blocking another opposing player, barged that player and carried forward a kung-fu kicked the deceased.

There is nothing analogous in the two scenarios.

Alan Harper's Tash said:
Like everything in life, there is nuance that needs to be applied and I‘m happy for the legal proceedings to play out. I’m not 100% either way.
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Mr Kobayashi said:
What's the relevance? The hockey player that died was in natural position going towards goal.

The arrested player was in position of blocking another opposing player, barged that player and carried forward a kung-fu kicked the deceased.

There is nothing analogous in the two scenarios.
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From what I’ve read, Johnson’s head was about 4 feet off the ground, which, unless he was a hobbit, wouldn’t be where he expected his head to be.

I get it, you’re totally convinced that he's bang to rights.

Time will tell if you are right.
 
Alan Harper's Tash said:
From what I’ve read, Johnson’s head was about 4 feet off the ground, which, unless he was a hobbit, wouldn’t be where he expected his head to be.

I get it, you’re totally convinced that he's bang to rights.

Time will tell if you are right.
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So you haven't seen the clip. His head was at normal height for the sport. And aligned to other players making attacking moves.

Not sure there's much point of you entering a debate tbh.
 
Alan Harper's Tash said:
From what I’ve read, Johnson’s head was about 4 feet off the ground, which, unless he was a hobbit, wouldn’t be where he expected his head to be.

I get it, you’re totally convinced that he's bang to rights.

Time will tell if you are right.
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I disagree on that one.

The law will decide, and whatever it does will be within the law.

But I don't think we will ever really know that side of it.
 
Coatigan said:
I disagree on that one.

The law will decide, and whatever it does will be within the law.

But I don't think we will ever really know that side of it.
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That’s true, but I think our usual suspect thinks he’s written the laws and knows exactly what and what doesn’t apply.
 
SWP's back said:
And genuinely don’t see malice in the contact that was made?
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My guess is that he’s gone to block him with his leg and it’s gone wrong. Now whether that is malicious or not, I don’t know.

I’m not claiming to be an authority on Ice Hockey. I have skated to a reasonable standard, but never when being barged about.

My leaning is that it’s an accident that was caused either by an off-balance opponent or one that’s tried to block him that’s gone wrong.

If it’s the latter, then he’ll probably be charged with IM and it will be up to the prosecution to prove it.

I don’t think it’s binary though. It’s not 100% either way. To me.
 
Alan Harper's Tash said:
My guess is that he’s gone to block him with his leg and it’s gone wrong. Now whether that is malicious or not, I don’t know.

I’m not claiming to be an authority on Ice Hockey. I have skated to a reasonable standard, but never when being barged about.

My leaning is that it’s an accident that was caused either by an off-balance opponent or one that’s tried to block him that’s gone wrong.

If it’s the latter, then he’ll probably be charged with IM and it will be up to the prosecution to prove it.

I don’t think it’s binary though. It’s not 100% either way. To me.
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Wouldn't you pull your leg down rather than up if you wanted to block someone?

Rather than stick out a blade that created more danger.
 
Alan Harper's Tash said:
My guess is that he’s gone to block him with his leg and it’s gone wrong. Now whether that is malicious or not, I don’t know.

I’m not claiming to be an authority on Ice Hockey. I have skated to a reasonable standard, but never when being barged about.

My leaning is that it’s an accident that was caused either by an off-balance opponent or one that’s tried to block him that’s gone wrong.

If it’s the latter, then he’ll probably be charged with IM and it will be up to the prosecution to prove it.

I don’t think it’s binary though. It’s not 100% either way. To me.
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The very act of trying to block a player with a leg is a foul. USA rule books class a leg check as a reckless endangerment and immediate sending off from the match.

Case 5 in this list.

USA Hockey Officiating Rulebook

The Official Rules of Ice Hockey is the essential resource for players, coaches, referees, parents and fans. Included are USA Hockey's official playing rules and interpretations, referee signals and detailed rink diagrams.
www.usahockeyrulebook.com www.usahockeyrulebook.com

So even if he had done this, its malicious in terms of Hockey rules. Im not suggesting he tried to hurt the guy. but the manouver, if it is what( im still not convinved with the bad video quality ) would have ( should have ) been a major penalty and sending off.
 
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