Ilkay Gundogan - 2019/20 Performances

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ADegenerate said:
The argument is more about the totality rather than one individual game. Nev’s point and the point I was making still stands. Personally, I’m asking for killers and finishers in each attacking position. Gundogan has his value and Phil scoring was just happenstance and out of sheer luck happened to bring home the point I was making perfectly.

If you’re playing Gundogan as a free 8 you’ll be hard pressed to ever convince me that’s the right position for him. If he’s playing in a hybrid 8/dual pivot with Rodri getting forward and Gundogan providing cover then I can be sold on that.
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What (kind of results) would convince you that Gundogan is good enough for what Pep wants from the player in that position? Do you know what he wants from him in the first place?

What if neither 'a free 6' nor a 'a hybrid 8/dual pivot' describes accurately what Pep has in mind?

We were lucky to sign Gundo for 20m and we promised him to play him often enough in order to convince him to sign a new contract. Otherwise, we would have to spend some 50m on a new midfielder next summer (when Dave leaves) and it might take a whole season for this midfielder to learn the system like it was the case with Bernie and Mahrez.

When Pep takes decisions, he has a much bigger picture in his mind than us normal fans. At least some of us know it whereas others are quick to criticise and flap around.

Personally, I want to see Foden instead of Gundo, but I'm not willing to question the manager for his choices as we don't know all the information relevant to his decision-making in one or another game. The important thing is the team to win and maintain the incredible level from last two seasons. I think we'll get better in the spring.
 
ADegenerate said:
The argument is more about the totality rather than one individual game. Nev’s point and the point I was making still stands. Personally, I’m asking for killers and finishers in each attacking position. Gundogan has his value and Phil scoring was just happenstance and out of sheer luck happened to bring home the point I was making perfectly.

If you’re playing Gundogan as a free 8 you’ll be hard pressed to ever convince me that’s the right position for him. If he’s playing in a hybrid 8/dual pivot with Rodri getting forward and Gundogan providing cover then I can be sold on that.
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Rodri imo, should be used as another goal threat & definitely be seen more as a viable attacking option in the final 3rd. We didn't sign him for that job but imo he's a better attacking player than the player we thought we had signed.

He possibly has a better shot from outside the box than anybody & he has a superb through ball on him as well as an aerial threat. I really hope Pep develops him, rather than him just settling for his current role. If necessary someone else can 'drop in' & cover for him, as you say.
 
alexmcity said:
What (kind of results) would convince you that Gundogan is good enough for what Pep wants from the player in that position? Do you know what he wants from him in the first place?

What if neither 'a free 6' nor a 'a hybrid 8/dual pivot' describes accurately what Pep has in mind?

We were lucky to sign Gundo for 20m and we promised him to play him often enough in order to convince him to sign a new contract. Otherwise, we would have to spend some 50m on a new midfielder next summer (when Dave leaves) and it might take a whole season for this midfielder to learn the system like it was the case with Bernie and Mahrez.

When Pep takes decisions, he has a much bigger picture in his mind than us normal fans. At least some of us know it whereas others are quick to criticise and flap around.

Personally, I want to see Foden instead of Gundo, but I'm not willing to question the manager for his choices as we don't know all the information relevant to his decision-making in one or another game. The important thing is the team to win and maintain the incredible level from last two seasons. I think we'll get better in the spring.
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We are a fantastic team.

Hence we can break records with a left fullback who would not have been able to play in Joe Royle's team.

Doesn't mean we can relax & just accept the situation imo. We need to sign another quality midfielder imo, irrespective of Foden.
 
alexmcity said:
What (kind of results) would convince you that Gundogan is good enough for what Pep wants from the player in that position? Do you know what he wants from him in the first place?

What if neither 'a free 6' nor a 'a hybrid 8/dual pivot' describes accurately what Pep has in mind?

We were lucky to sign Gundo for 20m and we promised him to play him often enough in order to convince him to sign a new contract. Otherwise, we would have to spend some 50m on a new midfielder next summer (when Dave leaves) and it might take a whole season for this midfielder to learn the system like it was the case with Bernie and Mahrez.

When Pep takes decisions, he has a much bigger picture in his mind than us normal fans. At least some of us know it whereas others are quick to criticise and flap around.

Personally, I want to see Foden instead of Gundo, but I'm not willing to question the manager for his choices as we don't know all the information relevant to his decision-making in one or another game. The important thing is the team to win and maintain the incredible level from last two seasons. I think we'll get better in the spring.
Click to expand...

Nev basically hit home what I would say. I’ve been into baseball, basketball, and American football for 30 years. Football I’ve only got a little over a decade with. Pep is the GOAT I’ve ever seen out of all the sports so I wouldn’t presume to think I know more.

My annoyance comes from replacement players and ilkay being the only ‘replacement’ that shows a tangible drop off in finishing/assisting. Jesus for Kun, Sterling for Sane, Mahrez for Raz/Bernardo shows only the minimal drop off that you would expect from somebody ‘just outside’ our best 11. I’d leave it alone as I actually have nothing personal against the player because he’s a fine addition except we have Phil on the bench who puts up equatable numbers to Dave! Ilkay doesn’t put up the important final numbers that Kevin/Dave/Phil put up and in tight games I think that has significant value. we’re currently the best club in the world with very few leaks left to plug up and for me that’s one of the few noticeable ones.

It’s 100% nitpicking but look how tight the margins are with Liverpool. I’ve tried to throw out neutral data to keep bias out of the way and tried to keep things objective. I’ve posted a few workarounds to his lack of final contributions such as the hybrid 8 / dual pivot that showed prominence with Rodri’s preassist.

Again, if we started Sterling, Jesus, Mahrez we can expect just a slight expected goal drop off from Sane, Kun, Sterling but if we swap out Gundogan for Dave/Kevin then the drop off is substantial.
 
ADegenerate said:
Nev basically hit home what I would say. I’ve been into baseball, basketball, and American football for 30 years. Football I’ve only got a little over a decade with. Pep is the GOAT I’ve ever seen out of all the sports so I wouldn’t presume to think I know more.

My annoyance comes from replacement players and ilkay being the only ‘replacement’ that shows a tangible drop off in finishing/assisting. Jesus for Kun, Sterling for Sane, Mahrez for Raz/Bernardo shows only the minimal drop off that you would expect from somebody ‘just outside’ our best 11. I’d leave it alone as I actually have nothing personal against the player because he’s a fine addition except we have Phil on the bench who puts up equatable numbers to Dave! Ilkay doesn’t put up the important final numbers that Kevin/Dave/Phil put up and in tight games I think that has significant value. we’re currently the best club in the world with very few leaks left to plug up and for me that’s one of the few noticeable ones.

It’s 100% nitpicking but look how tight the margins are with Liverpool. I’ve tried to throw out neutral data to keep bias out of the way and tried to keep things objective. I’ve posted a few workarounds to his lack of final contributions such as the hybrid 8 / dual pivot that showed prominence with Rodri’s preassist.

Again, if we started Sterling, Jesus, Mahrez we can expect just a slight expected goal drop off from Sane, Kun, Sterling but if we swap out Gundogan for Dave/Kevin then the drop off is substantial.
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So how does your theory relate to last seasons run in as IIRC, Gundog played and was pivotal in that?

Im sorry but football is more dynamic that you are trying to make out with far too many variables for your assertions to hold any weight imo and personally, I feel you are simply trying to mask a bias with meaningless stats
 
Needs to be binned next summer. Disgraceful performance, hid all game. We have potential homegrown superstar player and instead this guy plays.
 
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