Is it time to unmask the muslim woman?

[bluemoonmatt]

By the same principle then I take it you believe we should all be allowed to own a gun, (for example) because well most of us havn't fatally shot anyone. Yet.

There should be the presumption that you won't shoot anyone, yes.

This is where our ideologies fundamentally differ I guess. Anyway, nice debating this but I must go, I'll end up getting the sack ;-(

 

[u2fme2]

this country is too gutless to make this happen

 

[bluetom]

We're gutless? Which other countries ban items of clothing? Saudi Arabia, UAE, Sudan, Uzbekistan - countries with guts!! We didn't ban habits during the 80s, i presume cos we are gutless too.

I think we won't ban it, cos this country is too good, too free, too developed - we won't let short-term gimmicky statements and paranoia damage our principles (like in France and Belgium). If the state do ban it, it will be to divert attention away from some internal political crisis (like in France and Belgium).

Its just scapegoating. Yeah, we have serious identity issues in England - who are we, what do we stand for etc. but its hardly some overtly-religious woman's fault, and making her face visible wont change a thing. Maybe its more to do with the neglect and division of everyday working class people (of all religions) who traditionally unite and uphold the values of a nation. I dunno.

But we need real solutions, and we could start by embracing one of the few things which makes England unique, our freedom.

 

[TheMightyQuinn]

If we'd made vans illegal then Manchester possibly may not have been blown up in the 90's.

If we'd banned box cutters and planes then 9/11 possibly wouldn't have happened.

Of course, it's bollocks.

The terrorists would still find a way.

What I find shocking is how willingly people will forgo all their rights as a human being just because 1 in 600 million people might be a terrorists or a peadophile or something.

Ban children and paedophilia would disappear over night, right?

Can't believe this thread is still going, the intelligent posters have said all there is to say the ones who want the burkha banned have several sinister agendas which means we can never change their opinion.

 

[dubaisteve]

Well living where i do ive gotta say you ever seen anyone with a burka on trying to eat soup in the food court!!!! Well funny :)<br /><br />-- Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:22 pm --<br /><br />Well living where i do ive gotta say you ever seen anyone with a burka on trying to eat soup in the food court!!!! Well funny :)

 

[sweynforkbeard]

Worth a lot more than 2p that. Like it or not I think that a sizeable proportion of white working class males feel excluded in their own country by the liberal intelligentsias espousal of multiculturalism that seems to belittle and denigrate their existence. I have seen it in schools, it exists and it is worrying and counter productive to the sort of society I hope our country can be.

Indeed, multiculturalism has never been a foundation of British society.

That's why the Celts, Gaelic, Romans, Norse, French, Germans, Afro-Carribeans, Spanish, Indians, Chinese and Australians have never lived in this country throughout it's history in large numbers.

Oh, wait..

I respect your opinion Sweyn, but the facts of the history of Britain don't bear out at all with what you are saying. We have been a multiculturalist country for over 2000 years and have always taken some parts of their culture, then adapted it to our own to form a better Britain.

Anyway, I'm off now to drink my German lager whilst watching my American TV program on my Japanese TV. Perhaps I might have an Indian curry as well as I'm getting a bit peckish? Actually, I might wait and go to the local cafe tomorrow instead and get a French croissant to go with my Columbian Coffee or Caribbean Tea. Hell, I might just turn on the radio and listen to that rock and roll or hip hop, which is totally all about the white working class culture.

I respect your opinions too, Damo, but to equate the use of foreign products with multiculturism is a little off beam. I am well aware of the history of immigration from various parts of the world over many years and would agree that as a country we have borrowed or adapted many things from other cultures to the enrichment of British society. If you read my post I said that swathes of the white working class feel excluded and marginalised by the type of multi culturalism that has been espoused recently. Trevor Philips - hardly a cross burning KKK grandwizard -has expressed his concerns about this as have many other bien pensants of both right and left. As I said I have worked for a number of years actively bettering community relations and have experienced at first hand white working class disillusionment. To deny this issue exists or to label as borderline racist anyone who points out its existence does our society no favours. The BNP and others of their ilk exploit the situation - I repeat it worries me and is counter productive to the sort of society I hope our country can be. BTW I think the tee shirt I'm wearing was made in Ecuador.

 

[Damocles]

I respect your opinions too, Damo, but to equate the use of foreign products with multiculturism is a little off beam. I am well aware of the history of immigration from various parts of the world over many years and would agree that as a country we have borrowed or adapted many things from other cultures to the enrichment of British society. If you read my post I said that swathes of the white working class feel excluded and marginalised by the type of multi culturalism that has been espoused recently. Trevor Philips - hardly a cross burning KKK grandwizard -has expressed his concerns about this as have many other bien pensants of both right and left. As I said I have worked for a number of years actively bettering community relations and have experienced at first hand white working class disillusionment. To deny this issue exists or to label as borderline racist anyone who points out its existence does our society no favours. The BNP and others of their ilk exploit the situation - I repeat it worries me and is counter productive to the sort of society I hope our country can be. BTW I think the tee shirt I'm wearing was made in Ecuador.

I get the white working class disillusionment, as I live in an old mining town (Leigh), I'm constantly surrounded by it. There's also many Polish and Ukranian immigrants in the area which leads to young lads losing their jobs in the local factories; the worst of which being the local Pataks factory where they seem to take on far more immigrants purposefully.

One of the problems though is that we don't really have anything that can be pointed to as part of a British culture, simply because we are such a mix of all others.
To be British used to mean the stiff upper lip, witty gentlemen and the hard working working class pit lads. The morals of these people were pretty easy to nail down.
This is just my uneducated opinion, but one of our problems is that we have stolen so much from American and Black culture that we are really becoming the 51st State. All of our movies and TV is American, our music and fashion is stolen from Black culture, even our food is now becoming closer to American than European.

Perhaps it's the town I live in, or the company that I keep, but extreme right wing views are starting to take hold and even become a little fashionable amongst young people. I recently had a 15 year old lad talking to me; born in England and wasn't sure about who his dad was (as his mother wouldn't disclose it). Anyway, the kid was quite obviously Asian as he shared the skin colour and the facial features of Asian people. He started ranting to me about how "all Pakis should go home and let us English lads get a job". I pointed out to him that there must be some "Paki" in his family, and he said that they should be thrown out aswell.

The thing is, I would point to the fact that parents aren't teaching their kids their history or culture and due to this, they believe that extreme nationalism is somehow akin to patriotism. Wanting a Britain without Muslims or Burqas or Minarets isn't patriotism. Hell, wanting everybody in the country to speak English isn't patriotism. Patriotism is based within a love for the country as it currently stands, not in a Utopian world. This is the thing that the BNP and EDL just don't seem to get, you cannot love their idea of a country and be patriotic flag wavers as the two don't fit at all.

What we really need instead of all of this mass hysteria is education. We need children to be educated in what it means to be British, and one of our tenets is to be accepting of other cultures who over time blend in to our own. This doesn't mean that we don't change and they do, it means that we meet in the middle. They start speaking our language and we start picking up words of theirs, they practise their religions and it starts to become part of our social fabric, they wear their own fashion and these trendy fashion designers start mixing and matching (I should really point to Indian fashion here) it with ours.

There is a point to made about certain aspects of "Britishness" have disappeared. Morris Dancing, Brass Band, Harvest Festivals, etc all seem to be less widespread than perhaps they once were. I would point to the fact though, that this is down to lack of government funding, lack of interest and moreso lack of free time for people in a world who's pace has dramatically quickened over the last few decades than any takeover by other cultures.

I do acknowledge that white, working class disillusionment exists but as I say, I sincerely believe that is down to us as a society not supporting youth and scouting organisations and instead putting the internet, TV and video games in front of kids as electronic babysitters. Over the decades, we have lost an integral part of our sense of community and trust within each other because of these things declining. If the traditional British culture has been eroded, it is entirely down to us as a society of people and not down to a women wearing a Burqa.

 

[sweynforkbeard]

I respect your opinions too, Damo, but to equate the use of foreign products with multiculturism is a little off beam. I am well aware of the history of immigration from various parts of the world over many years and would agree that as a country we have borrowed or adapted many things from other cultures to the enrichment of British society. If you read my post I said that swathes of the white working class feel excluded and marginalised by the type of multi culturalism that has been espoused recently. Trevor Philips - hardly a cross burning KKK grandwizard -has expressed his concerns about this as have many other bien pensants of both right and left. As I said I have worked for a number of years actively bettering community relations and have experienced at first hand white working class disillusionment. To deny this issue exists or to label as borderline racist anyone who points out its existence does our society no favours. The BNP and others of their ilk exploit the situation - I repeat it worries me and is counter productive to the sort of society I hope our country can be. BTW I think the tee shirt I'm wearing was made in Ecuador.

I get the white working class disillusionment, as I live in an old mining town (Leigh), I'm constantly surrounded by it. There's also many Polish and Ukranian immigrants in the area which leads to young lads losing their jobs in the local factories; the worst of which being the local Pataks factory where they seem to take on far more immigrants purposefully.

One of the problems though is that we don't really have anything that can be pointed to as part of a British culture, simply because we are such a mix of all others.
To be British used to mean the stiff upper lip, witty gentlemen and the hard working working class pit lads. The morals of these people were pretty easy to nail down.
This is just my uneducated opinion, but one of our problems is that we have stolen so much from American and Black culture that we are really becoming the 51st State. All of our movies and TV is American, our music and fashion is stolen from Black culture, even our food is now becoming closer to American than European.

Perhaps it's the town I live in, or the company that I keep, but extreme right wing views are starting to take hold and even become a little fashionable amongst young people. I recently had a 15 year old lad talking to me; born in England and wasn't sure about who his dad was (as his mother wouldn't disclose it). Anyway, the kid was quite obviously Asian as he shared the skin colour and the facial features of Asian people. He started ranting to me about how "all Pakis should go home and let us English lads get a job". I pointed out to him that there must be some "Paki" in his family, and he said that they should be thrown out aswell.

The thing is, I would point to the fact that parents aren't teaching their kids their history or culture and due to this, they believe that extreme nationalism is somehow akin to patriotism. Wanting a Britain without Muslims or Burqas or Minarets isn't patriotism. Hell, wanting everybody in the country to speak English isn't patriotism. Patriotism is based within a love for the country as it currently stands, not in a Utopian world. This is the thing that the BNP and EDL just don't seem to get, you cannot love their idea of a country and be patriotic flag wavers as the two don't fit at all.

What we really need instead of all of this mass hysteria is education. We need children to be educated in what it means to be British, and one of our tenets is to be accepting of other cultures who over time blend in to our own. This doesn't mean that we don't change and they do, it means that we meet in the middle. They start speaking our language and we start picking up words of theirs, they practise their religions and it starts to become part of our social fabric, they wear their own fashion and these trendy fashion designers start mixing and matching (I should really point to Indian fashion here) it with ours.

There is a point to made about certain aspects of "Britishness" have disappeared. Morris Dancing, Brass Band, Harvest Festivals, etc all seem to be less widespread than perhaps they once were. I would point to the fact though, that this is down to lack of government funding, lack of interest and moreso lack of free time for people in a world who's pace has dramatically quickened over the last few decades than any takeover by other cultures.

I do acknowledge that white, working class disillusionment exists but as I say, I sincerely believe that is down to us as a society not supporting youth and scouting organisations and instead putting the internet, TV and video games in front of kids as electronic babysitters. Over the decades, we have lost an integral part of our sense of community and trust within each other because of these things declining. If the traditional British culture has been eroded, it is entirely down to us as a society of people and not down to a women wearing a Burqa.

So that's 99.99% agreement there - I did grip the edge of the table a little tightly when I read the words 'Morris dancing.' I was reading over the weekend (in a book review) of a burgeoning interest in folk music, taking as its reference the late 60s and early 70s. Perhaps there is a sense of something being lost that people are exploring musically.

 

[stonerblue]

If we'd made vans illegal then Manchester possibly may not have been blown up in the 90's.

If we'd banned box cutters and planes then 9/11 possibly wouldn't have happened.

Of course, it's bollocks.

The terrorists would still find a way.

What I find shocking is how willingly people will forgo all their rights as a human being just because 1 in 600 million people might be a terrorists or a peadophile or something.

Ban children and paedophilia would disappear over night, right?

Can't believe this thread is still going, the intelligent posters have said all there is to say the ones who want the burkha banned have several sinister agendas which means we can never change their opinion.

The 'banners' have yet to answer any of my posts in this thread and i'm thick as pig shit.

 

[kronkonite]

they're preparing a
make christianity compulsory thread