Italy v England | Euro 2020 Final

[Uffa]

The superstitious angle is interesting, how would you feel if we perceive it as gutless? I bet some me Italian would be annoyed with that false perception.

Oh yeah I noticed it might be strange to an outsider, we Italians all assumed it was a common football thing around the world but we soon realized that in other countries (e.g. England) it works the opposite way. I think it's rooted in the basic concept of not jinxing yourself by being too self-assured, you know, the various sayings about not celebrating too early etc. I don't think we'd be annoyed if you perceive it as gutless because in our mind as fans that's still better than getting ahead of ourselves or jinxing the team. I mean I'm personally not superstitious in life but when it comes to football there's such a huge part of luck and chance in it that we all get sucked into the irrational side of hope for important matches.

That’s your perception but it’s wrong. The song brings people together in a way no other song could.

My mrs 93 year old grandma who has seen probably ten games of football in her life got caught up with it coming home as all her family got into the spirit of things as the tournament progresses.

It’s coming home is no different to we’re going to win it, it’s just different words.

Yeah I get it, so the "home" part is really not that important. At this point it just comes down to our cultural differences and superstitions [see above], where here in Italy saying "we're gonna win it" before an important match is basically seen as a death sentence lol.

But theyre just a football songs, they are not literal.


So throwing it back at us because you think we sing songs in arrogance just makes us think none of you get English football song culture, rather than making us cower back to our holes hiding in shame.

Yeah I guess that's the difference, over here if you have a club song or a chant, you mean it and you believe what you say. So for example if you sang "we're the best in the world" in Italy it would be because you really think you're the best in the world at that moment. There's not much space for irony aside from chants that are made to mock opposing clubs. And going by that we tend to think supporters from different countries mean every word they say.

I assure you nobody expected any English fan to cower their heads in shame, football fans tend not to do that as a rule and they certainly don't it because of what opposing fans say. It was mostly seen as a minor thing to pick you on, as you do with opponents. If it was blown out of proportion and used by our players to motivate themselves, well, even better.

 

[Mancity1980]

Oh yeah I noticed it might be strange to an outsider, we Italians all assumed it was a common football thing around the world but we soon realized that in other countries (e.g. England) it works the opposite way. I think it's rooted in the basic concept of not jinxing yourself by being too self-assured, you know, the various sayings about not celebrating too early etc. I don't think we'd be annoyed if you perceive it as gutless because in our mind as fans that's still better than getting ahead of ourselves or jinxing the team. I mean I'm personally not superstitious in life but when it comes to football there's such a huge part of luck and chance in it that we all get sucked into the irrational side of hope for important matches.

Interesting reply, whilst luck plays a part in football there is a school of thought in England (and many other places) that you make your own luck. Surely if you put that much emphasis on chance and you win it more like winning the lottery than actually achieving something?

 

[give it to gordon]

He has said himself and his coaches analysed tournament football and came to the conclusion defensive sides win them. Time will tell whether he's proved right or not or it proves a complete load of bollocks, like Charlie Hughes the long ball game is the way forward mantra.

I haven't heard that before !

But if international football is all about being defensive , international football can ' do one'. I am not in the slightest but interesting in watching two teams play boring defensive football. To be honest not really that bothered about England or international football anyway lol.

I wouldnt say the Spanish, Brazil, Argentina, even Germany are that defensive.

So talented attacking players arent wanted in international football according to southgate.

England for two tournaments in a row has had easy groups and the easier route to the final.

I watched the final and it was clear southgate is out of his depth. He didnt have a clue what to do once Mancini had changed the Italian's formation after 20 minutes, nor when Mancini made subs.

England just sat deeper and deeper allowing the Italians back into the game. England went long ball, Pickford kicking was worst than school boys standard.

Italians had both their old centre halfs on a yellow card for about 60 minutes, did Southgate set out to put them under pressure ? No.
Kept Kane on who played straight into their arms ! Why not play Grealish, Sterling, Sancho to run at those two centre halfs ? Put them under pressure.

No southgate thought that sitting back hitting balls would win the final lol. Southgate is clueless about playing attacking football, doesn't know how to play Grealish, Foden, Sancho, etc.
Prefers boring defensive players , why did Mount get so much playing time he did nothing !.

 

[Onholiday(somemightsay)]

Also got away with his tactics for me. We battered them that first half of extra time. They were on the ropes and we scored. We then decided to take a fresh Grealish off and go to a back 5 and invite fifteen mins of pressure from them which they didn’t have in them previously. Pumped a lot of balls into the box, won a few corners which can easily lead to goals. Thankfully it didn’t and by winning many may say it was proved right. I said at that point we’d lose the final because of him.

This appeared to go completely unchallenged due to winning the game but he completely balls'd it up.

If you are looking to relieve pressure why wouldn't you be leaving on the guy who is very competent on the ball, running with the ball and as we are continuously told wins loads of free kicks?

He invited unnecessary pressure for the rest of the game............

 

[give it to gordon]

This appeared to go completely unchallenged due to winning the game but he completely balls'd it up.

If you are looking to relieve pressure why wouldn't you be leaving on the guy who is very competent on the ball, running with the ball and as we are continuously told wins loads of free kicks?

He invited unnecessary pressure for the rest of the game............

Southgate seemed to get a free pass from the press/media no one question his tactics.

I have seen a few now that are beginning to question him, that have popped up on my Google news app

 

[Uffa]

Interesting reply, whilst luck plays a part in football there is a school of thought in England (and many other places) that you make your own luck. Surely if you put that much emphasis on chance and you win it more like winning the lottery than actually achieving something?

I think it's simply the notion of not actively harming your chances; it's not bringing good luck to the team or helping them to win, it's simply refraining from bringing additional bad luck to their game. In the end that just makes for a normal match, they simply won't start with what we perceive as a small bad luck omen cast upon them.

Now, of course we know that the game is actively played with effort and usually won by the better team on merit, but let's just say that we don't feel like testing the part of luck and chance that might come into play at times. It's still a very light superstition, no one rationally believes in it but every Italian fan (and lots of players) usually adheres to it anyway, just in case.

It's a calming pre-match caution ritual if you will. This obviously happens especially before important matches where we are more nervous regarding the possible outcome, whereas when we actually feel very sure that we'll win and that we're superior (e.g. against San Marino) we have no problem saying so without thinking about jinxes/superstitions etc. So you see why at first glance hearing all opposing collectively and confidently shout that they were going to beat us and win the trophy (some even tattooing it on themselves before the match) seemed odd to us, as that's something we collectively do only when we're certain of it and feel actually way superior as a team.

 

[mexico1970]

I think it's simply the notion of not actively harming your chances; it's not bringing good luck to the team or helping them to win, it's simply refraining from bringing additional bad luck to their game. In the end that just makes for a normal match, they simply won't start with what we perceive as a small bad luck omen cast upon them.

Now, of course we know that the game is actively played with effort and usually won by the better team on merit, but let's just say that we don't feel like testing the part of luck and chance that might come into play at times. It's still a very light superstition, no one rationally believes in it but every Italian fan (and lots of players) usually adheres to it anyway, just in case.

It's a calming pre-match caution ritual if you will. This obviously happens especially before important matches where we are more nervous regarding the possible outcome, whereas when we actually feel very sure that we'll win and that we're superior (e.g. against San Marino) we have no problem saying so without thinking about jinxes/superstitions etc. So you see why at first glance hearing all opposing collectively and confidently shout that they were going to beat us and win the trophy (some even tattooing it on themselves before the match) seemed odd to us, as that's something we collectively do only when we're certain of it and feel actually way superior as a team.

An interesting take from a foreign fan it really is, most English people wont subscribe to the jinx or superstition mantra though, it's not a major part of who we are.

Some players have rituals but I suspect most players and fans don't have that mindset.

 

[the blue panther]

I seem to remember when Hoddle was in charge that he recognised how important it was just to keep the ball. With a hothead like Pickford firing it skywards like a loose canon, Southgate got his wish of relieving his defence for 30 seconds or so, until they came back under pressure. (This certainly pissed-off John Stones a few times.)
Possession is so important - not being defensive. Italy won it with a good team, good tactics, and by reacting well under pressure. (And, they lost arguably their best player before the final.) We had plan A - hope for a break; score; defend.
What a waste of some fantastic attacking talent that Southgate had at his disposal.
Hoddle was the last decent manager we had, imho.
Oh, sorry, I just remembered plan B - silly me. That was - hold out till 120 minutes then bring on your penalty takers to win the hoped for penalty shoot out.
Maybe, by the time he gets to Qatar, Southgate will have devised plan C.

 

[Gorton_Tubster]

Hoddle best manager we've had lol. Had Shearer, Scholes, Beckham, all that talent and couldn't even get us past the quarters. Employed a faith healer to win us games, had god on our side....... Yeah he was better than the man who got us to the wc semi and euros final.

There's some crazy and confused thinking out there nowadays.

 

[feedmpenzaandhewillscore]

I seem to remember when Hoddle was in charge that he recognised how important it was just to keep the ball. With a hothead like Pickford firing it skywards like a loose canon, Southgate got his wish of relieving his defence for 30 seconds or so, until they came back under pressure. (This certainly pissed-off John Stones a few times.)
Possession is so important - not being defensive. Italy won it with a good team, good tactics, and by reacting well under pressure. (And, they lost arguably their best player before the final.) We had plan A - hope for a break; score; defend.
What a waste of some fantastic attacking talent that Southgate had at his disposal.
Hoddle was the last decent manager we had, imho.
Oh, sorry, I just remembered plan B - silly me. That was - hold out till 120 minutes then bring on your penalty takers to win the hoped for penalty shoot out.
Maybe, by the time he gets to Qatar, Southgate will have devised plan C.

Pickford’s distribution was that bad the likes of Walker ended up booming it up the pitch to try to relieve pressure as they didn’t have faith in playing it back to him. Keeping the ball and not losing it is such a simple idea but highly effective, it’s what Pep’s hole footballing philosophy is about. Why couldn’t England do it, they must do enough keep ball in training.

If Italy would have scored when we scored they would have controlled the game and not let England back in, they are a lot more streetwise and have a manager in Mancini who can is light years ahead of Southgate in tactics and changing games.