I've Got it Wrong it Seems

[Didsbury Dave]

I'm having a very big re-think regarding certain players and I may owe some of you an apology.

Firstly, I am not entertaining the notion of Hughes being sacked during this season. It isn't going to happen so let's look at what he needs to do to turn it round.

Lescott - I thought he was a brilliant signing and I have stuck up for him recently but I'm starting to question this now. He wasn't as bad as some have made out yesterday but he still wasn't great. I read an Everton fan's assessment of him when we signed him and he spoke of his "magnificent upper body strength"...well I haven't seen any of that. He struggles to stay on his feet and gets brushed off the ball far too easily. I don't think Kompany is the answer but when Ned is fit Lescott is under some serious pressure.

Barry - He looks like his legs have gone. I know they haven't but it's a reflection of how bad he's playing. He needs to be rested and De Jong played (in a 4 3 3!)

Robinho - I've been one of his biggest critcs but I now agree we need him back because we're lacking his goal threat and creativity. I've argued that we don't miss him in the past but now I think we need him back asap.

Tevez - When I was at the derby at The Swamp last season I was speaking to Phil Neville of all people about Tevez (sit down, we've known each other from playing cricket together as kids) at half time. Despite him scoring that blinder I was saying that I understand Ferguson not paying the money for him because he's just a "glorified Paul Dickov". He laughed and said, "He's a bit better than Paul Dickov mate!" So I picked his brains about what he's like to play against and the only thing he could really say was that, "He's just a nightmare to play against because he's always closing you down" "Like Paul Dickov then?" "Errrr, yeah, I suppose so." When we were linked with him I put all my doubts aside and welcomed the wind up opportunity. Now the dust has settled my initial assessment of him hasn't really altered. What I don't understand is why he's a forward given that he has none of the attributes of a forward. He's little pace, can't shoot but has got a big engine, can pass and loves a tackle....he's a box to box midfielder for fucks sake! He needs to be played on the right hand side of a front three and if he's not performing in that he needs to be on the bench. He's a great lad to come off the bench and cause an impact....just like he did at United.

Hughes - He's baffling me at the moment. His stubborness regarding the formation is costing us points and damaging his reputation. Petrov on the right and SWP on the left yesterday was comical and I don't understand the signing of De Jong if he intended to play 4 4 2. At the moment, he's reminding me of Keegan when he signed McManaman and started messing around with the formation and tactics just to accommodate him to the detriment of the team as a whole. Tevez is our new McManaman in that respect. Didsbury Dave said last week that if Hughes isn't careful Tevez is going to get him the sack....he might well be right. Not yet, but at the end of the season very possibly.

That's a great thread, m27 and I agree with all of it.

I still have faith in Lescott, but I do agree he's making errors. In the second half he was fantastic yesterday and you could see what a good player he is. They'e all making errors, that's the problem, but most of them are communication errors. Errors made yesderday were Barry losing posession for their second, Ireland not picking up the runner who scored the third, Toure not marning the man who headed it down etc. They are the sort of errors a team who don't know each other that well make.

I totally agree with all your other points. It isn't a crisis yet and Hughes should be judged at the end of the season. But he is making some bafflinf decisions.

Really good thread.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

You did indeed mate, and you may well be proved right in the end. The thing is, I want him to be a sucess because I would consider it a success for good old fashioned discipline and hard graft. I like the fact that all the players have to be suited and booted for the games and are made to adhere to strict rules. However, that's all rendered useless if he keeps making strange decisions on match days.

Our only true 4 4 2 central midfielder is Michael Johnson, we simply have not got the personnel to play that formation so why he persists with it only he knows.

I also would love him to be a success. It would be fantastic that a British manager could win things, that he built a club up to challenge the very best. I was all for that approach.

Unfortunately, you might as well have given the job to Megson, Allardyce or any of the other workaday mediocre managers that infest the Premiership.

You wanna be the best... then you have to employ the best. Simples.

And for all Hughes bravado, he has absolutely no track record as a manager. A manager out of his depth.

You can tell a weak frightrened manager in football, as well as any other business... they surround themselves with yes-men, lackeys, lick-spittles, old mates, people who are grateful for a job as no one else would pay them the salaries they are now "earning".

It was when Hughes filled out the club with his disciples that I realised how frightened a manager he was. In my business I often come across Empire-builders, who surround themselves with yes-men, who make themselves sound important because everyone agrees with them! And you know that they are cheating the business. They don't employ the best... just the ones who will back them!

I think the crux of this situation is Hughes relationship with Cook. The CEO is inextricably linked with Hughes and to sack him would be an admission of failure and put his own job in jeopardy. So I don't expect any knee-jerk reactions from the CEO... he's on too good a bung to commit career suicide!

But come April, fauilure to be top 4 will see movement, and ther fact that Kenyon is now out of a job may yet prove to be significant.

Too many inexperienced amateurs running the club and even the owners will see that soon.

That's also a cracking post in many ways.

Cook's never been the right man for me, I don't care how many beers he has with the fans.

It's a bit harsh on hughes - all managers bring their own staff in. But I agree, if we don't show huge progree this year they'll both be gone. And Kenyon is rumoured to be a blue.....

 

[BlueSinclair]

have said this before but every player we have purchased was a player that suited 4-3-3, a system that we have played for the last couple of seasons, yet the minute we signed Tevez we have thrown that system out of the window and played 4-4-2.

IMO it defies logic as there is no reason whatsoever not to play Tevez on the right of the 4-3-3 yet Hughes refuses to change the system.

I so wanted to be proved wrong about my assessment of Hughes from last season, unfortunately nothing seems to have changed as he has an unenviable knack of making good players look shite.

I am still gutted now about yesterday, been to the gym to try and shake it off but can't get away from the fact that we are in the process of throwing away a cracking opportunity to gatecrash the top4.

4 points from Wigan, Fulham, Brum and Burnley is a disgrace.

Agreed but last season it would have 0 or maybe 1.

Hardly, most likely we would have at least won against Burnley. And wouldn't you rather lose 3 matches, and win 2? Makes 6 points intead of 5. Sorry but your excuse doesn't work at all.

Best thread I have ever read here.

 

[m27]

I also would love him to be a success. It would be fantastic that a British manager could win things, that he built a club up to challenge the very best. I was all for that approach.

Unfortunately, you might as well have given the job to Megson, Allardyce or any of the other workaday mediocre managers that infest the Premiership.

You wanna be the best... then you have to employ the best. Simples.

And for all Hughes bravado, he has absolutely no track record as a manager. A manager out of his depth.

You can tell a weak frightrened manager in football, as well as any other business... they surround themselves with yes-men, lackeys, lick-spittles, old mates, people who are grateful for a job as no one else would pay them the salaries they are now "earning".

It was when Hughes filled out the club with his disciples that I realised how frightened a manager he was. In my business I often come across Empire-builders, who surround themselves with yes-men, who make themselves sound important because everyone agrees with them! And you know that they are cheating the business. They don't employ the best... just the ones who will back them!

I think the crux of this situation is Hughes relationship with Cook. The CEO is inextricably linked with Hughes and to sack him would be an admission of failure and put his own job in jeopardy. So I don't expect any knee-jerk reactions from the CEO... he's on too good a bung to commit career suicide!

But come April, fauilure to be top 4 will see movement, and ther fact that Kenyon is now out of a job may yet prove to be significant.

Too many inexperienced amateurs running the club and even the owners will see that soon.

That's also a cracking post in many ways.

Cook's never been the right man for me, I don't care how many beers he has with the fans.

It's a bit harsh on hughes - all managers bring their own staff in. But I agree, if we don't show huge progree this year they'll both be gone. And Kenyon is rumoured to be a blue.....

You're right Dave, all managers do bring their own staff in but are you aware of someone who has done it so quickly and so thorough as Hughes at almost every level of the club? I understand his right hand men being hand picked but why has he had to go through the whole club replacing people?

If he thinks the likes of Neil Roberts are the best men for the job then that's fine, if he is simply appointing people he knows will back him to the hilt come what may, then that is worrying and not the best for the club as a whole. I'm going to be very mishievous now...RSC anyone?

 

[danny21manc]

have said this before but every player we have purchased was a player that suited 4-3-3, a system that we have played for the last couple of seasons, yet the minute we signed Tevez we have thrown that system out of the window and played 4-4-2.

IMO it defies logic as there is no reason whatsoever not to play Tevez on the right of the 4-3-3 yet Hughes refuses to change the system.

I so wanted to be proved wrong about my assessment of Hughes from last season, unfortunately nothing seems to have changed as he has an unenviable knack of making good players look shite.

I am still gutted now about yesterday, been to the gym to try and shake it off but can't get away from the fact that we are in the process of throwing away a cracking opportunity to gatecrash the top4.

4 points from Wigan, Fulham, Brum and Burnley is a disgrace.

True but knowing us we'll go and beat Liverpool, Chelsea , spurs and totally redeem ourselves..
I Hope... ;)

 

[danny21manc]

have said this before but every player we have purchased was a player that suited 4-3-3, a system that we have played for the last couple of seasons, yet the minute we signed Tevez we have thrown that system out of the window and played 4-4-2.

IMO it defies logic as there is no reason whatsoever not to play Tevez on the right of the 4-3-3 yet Hughes refuses to change the system.

I so wanted to be proved wrong about my assessment of Hughes from last season, unfortunately nothing seems to have changed as he has an unenviable knack of making good players look shite.

I am still gutted now about yesterday, been to the gym to try and shake it off but can't get away from the fact that we are in the process of throwing away a cracking opportunity to gatecrash the top4.

4 points from Wigan, Fulham, Brum and Burnley is a disgrace.

True but knowing us we'll go and beat Liverpool, Chelsea , spurs and totally redeem ourselves..
I Hope... ;)

 

[r.soleofsalford]

I'm having a very big re-think regarding certain players and I may owe some of you an apology.

Firstly, I am not entertaining the notion of Hughes being sacked during this season. It isn't going to happen so let's look at what he needs to do to turn it round.

Lescott - I thought he was a brilliant signing and I have stuck up for him recently but I'm starting to question this now. He wasn't as bad as some have made out yesterday but he still wasn't great. I read an Everton fan's assessment of him when we signed him and he spoke of his "magnificent upper body strength"...well I haven't seen any of that. He struggles to stay on his feet and gets brushed off the ball far too easily. I don't think Kompany is the answer but when Ned is fit Lescott is under some serious pressure.

Barry - He looks like his legs have gone. I know they haven't but it's a reflection of how bad he's playing. He needs to be rested and De Jong played (in a 4 3 3!)

Robinho - I've been one of his biggest critcs but I now agree we need him back because we're lacking his goal threat and creativity. I've argued that we don't miss him in the past but now I think we need him back asap.

Tevez - When I was at the derby at The Swamp last season I was speaking to Phil Neville of all people about Tevez (sit down, we've known each other from playing cricket together as kids) at half time. Despite him scoring that blinder I was saying that I understand Ferguson not paying the money for him because he's just a "glorified Paul Dickov". He laughed and said, "He's a bit better than Paul Dickov mate!" So I picked his brains about what he's like to play against and the only thing he could really say was that, "He's just a nightmare to play against because he's always closing you down" "Like Paul Dickov then?" "Errrr, yeah, I suppose so." When we were linked with him I put all my doubts aside and welcomed the wind up opportunity. Now the dust has settled my initial assessment of him hasn't really altered. What I don't understand is why he's a forward given that he has none of the attributes of a forward. He's little pace, can't shoot but has got a big engine, can pass and loves a tackle....he's a box to box midfielder for fucks sake! He needs to be played on the right hand side of a front three and if he's not performing in that he needs to be on the bench. He's a great lad to come off the bench and cause an impact....just like he did at United.

Hughes - He's baffling me at the moment. His stubborness regarding the formation is costing us points and damaging his reputation. Petrov on the right and SWP on the left yesterday was comical and I don't understand the signing of De Jong if he intended to play 4 4 2. At the moment, he's reminding me of Keegan when he signed McManaman and started messing around with the formation and tactics just to accommodate him to the detriment of the team as a whole. Tevez is our new McManaman in that respect. Didsbury Dave said last week that if Hughes isn't careful Tevez is going to get him the sack....he might well be right. Not yet, but at the end of the season very possibly.

good post, i kept quiet for a long time regarding the players, prefering to back the team and not slag players off for the fun of it. but recently i`ve decided to give my two penny`s worth.


i think there has been a lack of movement when we`re in possession with the effect of giving no options to the man with the ball. but for me the two fullback positions are the trouble. zab is the the kind of player i like, 100% given every game but hes not a fullback,

bridge looks quite good going forward, but not sideways to the right as he does more than he should. when he cuts inside it reduces his passing options because he is so one foot. but worst of all if anybody tries to beat him on the inside he lost, hes to attack minded but some of this is down to what the coaches want surely. with the attacking talent we have at our disposal why do we need the likes of richards and bridge trying to take on fullbacks surely we need defenders who are good at defending

 

[schumey04]

have said this before but every player we have purchased was a player that suited 4-3-3, a system that we have played for the last couple of seasons, yet the minute we signed Tevez we have thrown that system out of the window and played 4-4-2.

IMO it defies logic as there is no reason whatsoever not to play Tevez on the right of the 4-3-3 yet Hughes refuses to change the system.

I so wanted to be proved wrong about my assessment of Hughes from last season, unfortunately nothing seems to have changed as he has an unenviable knack of making good players look shite.

I am still gutted now about yesterday, been to the gym to try and shake it off but can't get away from the fact that we are in the process of throwing away a cracking opportunity to gatecrash the top4.

4 points from Wigan, Fulham, Brum and Burnley is a disgrace.

Agreed but last season it would have 0 or maybe 1.

Dont agree i think last year we would have had 6 points and 100 million still in the bank

 

[Blackfriars 420]

I've never posted on the forum before but Saturday exposed the manager so badly i feel compelled to comment.

I've tried to remain supportive of Hughes and i will continue to do so until May and then he must be replaced by a quality foreign tactician. (Hiddink, Jose etc)

The fact is that football teams display an attitude that is instilled from the top, when Mourinho's Chelsea used to take the lead, they clung onto it for their lives. That is the manager's blue print on the team. On the contrary, after clawing ourselves back into our game, our manager decides to defend a lead with 5 attacking players left on the pitch. After Chelsea scored yesterday, Ancellotti then removed Drogba and Anelka and replaced with a midfielder and a defender. We didnt really know what to do when we got in the lead, same can be said for Fulham or United, he cant instill tactical discipline in our play.

Had De Jong been tracking Macdonald, not Ireland we might have had 3 points.

Mark Hughes has on the whole signed good players for us, which in the future a better manager will be able to deploy to greater success. He has all the aces but has no idea how to deploy them which is proven by the Tevez/ 4 4 2 fiasco. I couldnt believe my eyes as Burnley out passed us with an extra man in midfield for 45 minutes. The 4 3 3 has served us so well in the past year at home and he's ripped it up to accomodate Tevez and others and its killing us, not just result wise but performance wise. Last year, we played much better football at home with Elano, Ireland space to operate in, the ball kept in the deck. now there is no link between midfield and forward because he's sold Elano and playing Ireland on the halfway line (when he does play), Stephen Ireland cannot play in a 4 4 2. Granted we miss Robinho.

The manager loves quick, direct play (Blackburn) but this is no way to make best of our squad. Adebayor is not a lump it up to him targetman, Hughes is totally wasting him by setting out a team which is not giving him any service in behind or to his feet. Craig Bellamy is not a left midfielder in a 4. if you're going to play 4 4 2 directly, then he's made to play off Manu, but he couldnt do that coz he wont drop tevez, and of course he cant drop his mate Craig so then wastes him on the left.

That is awful management.

Lescott is a huge concern, he's positionally play and awareness of players around him is appalling, he didnt even see Macdonald coming past him for the 3rd goal. obviously Hughes wont/cant drop him but Nedum is far more solid than him.

We have a squad that should see top 4 as a realistic goal, we are playing nowhere near that level under this manager. He is in over his head.

 

[Boots_]

Football managers tend to surround themselves with familiar faces.

Joe Royle had Willie Donachie as assistant, Jobson on the playing staff, Paul Power and Asa Hartford at reserve and youth level and Frankie Bunn at the academy. They were all ex-colleagues. Jim Cassell may have also been an ex-colleague. Royle was not responsible for bringing them all to the club but they were all known to him or "old pals" as it is usually described on here. It doesn't necessarily mean they are bad appointments.

Football is fairly unique in that the team manager, rather the employer, decides on the appointment of many staff members. It's always been this way and always will. Hence, familiar faces will always be amongst the appointments. But don't kid yourself that Hughes is the only manager who does it.