Jérémy Hélan & City (Merged)

[bizzbo]

Re: Jérémy Hélan & City (Merged)

it's an odd one, because I've always thought that French employment law was naturally weighted in favour of the employee.

 

[fbloke]

Re: Jérémy Hélan & City (Merged)

it's an odd one, because I've always thought that French employment law was naturally weighted in favour of the employee.

So this socialist ideal is all smoke and mirrors then?

Liberty, Equality, Franternity - Bolocks

 

[baylorblue]

Re: Jérémy Hélan & City (Merged)

I'm not sure why the West Point Academy is brought up because to join the US military you need to be at least 17 and have your high school degree or your GED. Also West Point is considered one of the premier four year college programs so not just anyone can get in and they certainly would not take 13 year old kids.

 

[johnny crossan]

Re: Jérémy Hélan & City (Merged)

but then the legal ramification of FIFA deciding that this pre-contractual agreement is binding on him in terms of inducement is that
a) any minor, in any country (not just France) would be bound by a PCA, whether or not they are applicable under the law of that juristiction,
or
b) precontractual agreements signed in France by minors are binding (for the purposes of inducement) but in other juristictions are not, which would give French clubs a protection not afforded to others.

????????????

1) FIFA definitely does recognise these Pre-Contracts –exactly this type of agreement is the basis for their finding against Chelsea. Except Kakuta had no guarantee of a professional contract, whereas Helan did, albeit with conditions.

2) Helan is bringing a case to ask if French law recognises them. The ‘courts’ he has been to so far have been within the French FA. They would be expected to uphold these pre-contracts as they allow them in the game in France. Now the case is with the French Civil Courts and the question now is – Are the FA football laws compatible with French Law?

3) EU law almost certainly doesn’t recognise these – as there are very limited situations where you can contract with a minor, even with parental consent. There might be an argument put forward that football is a special case. I don’t think it is one as yet.

4)The European Court of Human Rights has nothing to do with it. It is the European Court of Justice that could finally decide.

5) Helan can’t send the case to the ECJ, only the French courts can do that. The question then is – Is French law on this question compatible with EU law on this issue? That is why only the French Courts can ask the question of the ECJ.

6) There are conditions that have to be met for a pre-contract to be upheld (quite apart from the question of contracting with a minor). Among them are
a) Consideration – each side must get a benefit from the contract. The professional contract promise might be that in Helan’s case.
b) Certainty - about the terms of the contract at the time of signing. So maybe the fact that the proper contract was conditional on getting a place in a national might not fulfil this. It was never certain he would achieve this. Also there is no certainty of what the proper contract would be worth when he signed the pre-contract. Although the consideration does not have to monetary.
This all depends on the exact wording of the pre-contract, and only the French Courts can decide.

7) Bear in mind French & EU law is different to ours. It is purposive. The courts must consider what was meant to be achieved by the contract/regulation. Ours if much more factually based, and based around precedents. FIFA and UEFA will look at matters in the purposive way as well.

8) Fifa Regs say a player is a professional if he receives more in income than it costs him to train or play. It is not a contract related definition.


9) FIFA Regs say if a club signs a player who is in breach of contract, the club is assumed to have induced the breach. We will argue the breach happened well before we were in discussions with him and so we were not the cause. But FIFA may argue we knew he was in breach and therefore should have known we couldn’t sign him. That is one of the purposes of their Regulations.

10) The French FA are not allowed to issue an International Transfer Certificate (ITC) if there is an ongoing disagreement about a contract. So they may well have made a mistake with this issue. It was up to Rennes to tell the French FA there is an ongoing dispute. We will argue we accepted the ICT in good faith as evidence there was no dispute. Will FIFA accept this? They have a copy of the ITC, after all. Or will they say that we have admitted we knew of the dispute and therefore should have known the issue of the ITC was an error? Indeed, with that knowledge, we should not have asked for an ITC in the first place.

11) If there is any doubt about the French courts upholding this agreement I would be surprised if the French FA would want the case to go ahead as it would drive a cart through their protectionism. Likewise, I doubt if FIFA & UEFA would want it rejected in the courts as, again it could drive a cart through their Regs as well.

 

[Marvin]

Re: Jérémy Hélan & City (Merged)

9) FIFA Regs say if a club signs a player who is in breach of contract, the club is assumed to have induced the breach. We will argue the breach happened well before we were in discussions with him and so we were not the cause. But FIFA may argue we knew he was in breach and therefore should have known we couldn’t sign him. That is one of the purposes of their Regulations.

As a layman it seems preposterous that a pre-contract signed at the age of 13 can hold the player against his will. It is another matter if he signed it as an adult. If the rules are as you suggest, then the player would not be able to sign for anyone without the club's consent, or until the dispute had been resolved. That's ridiculous.

 

[FCLB]

Re: Jérémy Hélan & City (Merged)

Can someone tell how old Freddy Adu was when he signed a professional contract with D.C United? What does it tell about the US? This question is of course addressed to people who are judgemental on France's laws. I quoted nobody because I think every one is grown up enough to know what their position is and assume it.

So please tell. I am eager to finding out what the US is.

If Freddy Adu was forced to decide his future professional career by signing a legally binding contract whilst he was a 13 year old child, then the US is just as backwards, third-world and tin-pottish as the French in that respect.

Trying to excuse the French system because the US does the same will not wash with me, I'm afraid.

I dont understand the "if" and the "in that respect". It seems to me that the situation is clear when it comes to Freddy Adu.

Freddy Adu is a professional football player. Consequence: one day or another, he signed for the first time a professional contract.
How old was he when he signed a professional contract? Once this is clear, there is absolutely no needs for a "if".

Please correct your post to be as affirmative as you are when it comes to the US standing.

Why in "that respect"? In your previous post, you took a broad general stance on France, not a specific stance relatively to a well-delineated subject.

Please: How old was Adu when he signed his first pro contract?
What does it mean when it comes the US in a general view?

Thank you for your cooperation.

And the French teams do they recruit young African players?

What are your views of signing a 13 yr old to a contract?

Helan was already in dispute with Rennes, so how can you regard this as poaching?

French teams recruit young African players. I read along the thread that somehow the french clubs would behave in a similar way to african clubs.
The reality is that for it is becoming harder and harder for young African players to come to play in France.

On this case, this kind of contract was designed to protect children and prevent them from being the object of children trafficking. Am I against underaged transfers? Absolutely. Just like FIFA's charter declaration in principle. Is this kind of contract (developped by the French) the correct answer? Absolutely not. They dont prevent children trafficking and lead to long legal disputes.

Hélan was in dispute with his club. Manchester City interpretated this as a sign of the contract being invalid. Manchester City's bet.
City did not expect the dispute to be settled and believed their own interpretation to be the right one. They were wrong so...

As to the last post, I dont see how Hélan could not bring the case before the European Human rights Court as a last solution.

 

[bizzbo]

Re: Jérémy Hélan & City (Merged)

FCLB your English is excellent, but either you or I am confused as to the legal status of M. Hélan's case.

My understanding is that he has pursued the case within the FFF, who have dismissed his claim. The FFF are a self-regulatory body, not part of the French legal system. His current case is being heard by the domestic civil courts. City have stated that this case is ongoing. I can find no evidence that any part of the French judiciary has delivered a verdict, but I admit searching for information is extremely difficult. Even if there had been a decision, I have to assume that it is still under appeal? If so, couldn't he take this appeal to a higher French court, before he appealed to the European Courts? Finally, as another poster has suggested, is it not correct that matters of employment law are heard by the ECJ, not the ECtHR?

as to your final point, EU law simply does not recognise the validity of any such contract. Let me quote Rosemary Bennet, Social Affairs Correspondant of The Times:

European Union law makes clear that, just like any other class of worker, footballers cannot sign legally binding employment contracts until they are 16 years old.

Then, like everyone else, they can work wherever they like under free movement of people laws, a cornerstone of the 27-member EU block.

Pre-contract agreements, such as the one signed by Gaël Kakuta at Lens when he was 14, have never been tested in the EU courts.

If they are, it is hard to imagine the EU siding with an employer seeking to circumvent longstanding legal protection of minors. And pre-contract agreements are a solely French tradition, unheard of in other leading footballing nations such as England and Italy. That will not help French clubs to convince EU judges that the contracts are fair and in the spirit of the community.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article6826910.ece" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 826910.ece</a>

The pre-contract system has never been challenged before. M. Platini may have some support within the EU and CE, but gaining an exception on such a sensitive issue would be an astonishing victory.

 

[fbloke]

Re: Jérémy Hélan & City (Merged)

FCLB your English is excellent, but either you or I am confused as to the legal status of M. Hélan's case.

My understanding is that he has pursued the case within the FFF, who have dismissed his claim. The FFF are a self-regulatory body, not part of the French legal system. His current case is being heard by the domestic civil courts. City have stated that this case is ongoing. I can find no evidence that any part of the French judiciary has delivered a verdict, but I admit searching for information is extremely difficult. Even if there had been a decision, I have to assume that it is still under appeal? If so, couldn't he take this appeal to a higher French court, before he appealed to the European Courts? Finally, as another poster has suggested, is it not correct that matters of employment law are heard by the ECJ, not the ECtHR?

as to your final point, EU law simply does not recognise the validity of any such contract. Let me quote Rosemary Bennet, Social Affairs Correspondant of The Times:

European Union law makes clear that, just like any other class of worker, footballers cannot sign legally binding employment contracts until they are 16 years old.

Then, like everyone else, they can work wherever they like under free movement of people laws, a cornerstone of the 27-member EU block.

Pre-contract agreements, such as the one signed by Gaël Kakuta at Lens when he was 14, have never been tested in the EU courts.

If they are, it is hard to imagine the EU siding with an employer seeking to circumvent longstanding legal protection of minors. And pre-contract agreements are a solely French tradition, unheard of in other leading footballing nations such as England and Italy. That will not help French clubs to convince EU judges that the contracts are fair and in the spirit of the community.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article6826910.ece" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 826910.ece</a>

The pre-contract system has never been challenged before. M. Platini may have some support within the EU and CE, but gaining an exception on such a sensitive issue would be an astonishing victory.

May I make the point (again) that UEFA and FIFA has to overcome the basic principals that the EU stands for and they are significantly worried that they are losing their grip on things.

They simply cannot expect the contract arrangements for minors to stand, no matter what a national association maintains - that is likely to be the stance that City can take as well in the long running legal swings and roundabouts.

The idea of using controls based around T/O (or profitability) to maintain revenue streams for some clubs and not others is going to fall foul of the EU at some level.

Overall there may even be questions raised about UEFA's legitimacy if more examples like this end up in the courts. The legitimacy question may come from the fans, the clubs, the associations or the courts in either a national ot EU sense.

If I were M. Platini I would reflect long and hard on why his predecessors kept a lot quiet than he has on these sorts of issues, perhaps they new that people who live in glass houses should refrain from throwing stones?

 

[FCLB]

Re: Jérémy Hélan & City (Merged)

Hélan took his case before two sports courts (one being competent for all matters of sport, which I wont describe as being internal to FFF) before taking it to the french labour court.

This is why I stated that the case will go up to the European Human Rights. Hélan tries to exhaust every legal possibility. He could have applied to the civil court first first hand. He did not. He is right. A football carreer is short and there could be a long time before his case is solved. He is simply buying time. He is now before a civil court. Once the judgement is given, he can appeal if he does not get what he wants. If the appeal does not go his way, he can take the case to a final chamber which this time will give a final word for this sector.

Now I am pretty sure that there is matter to bring the case before another court, maybe a court for children issue. Same stuff here.

What matters for Hélan is not winning his case as he is not prevented from working but simply buying time.

Longstanding protection of minors is the key. The current situation is not felt as protective of minors as the french contract was designed with the aim of protection.

Whatsoever, there are regulations existing on the recruitment of minors like the 90 minutes rule. What ground do this law rest on? Is it compatible with the current status of the european law?

 

[johnny crossan]

Re: Jérémy Hélan & City (Merged)

9) FIFA Regs say if a club signs a player who is in breach of contract, the club is assumed to have induced the breach. We will argue the breach happened well before we were in discussions with him and so we were not the cause. But FIFA may argue we knew he was in breach and therefore should have known we couldn’t sign him. That is one of the purposes of their Regulations.

As a layman it seems preposterous that a pre-contract signed at the age of 13 can hold the player against his will. It is another matter if he signed it as an adult. If the rules are as you suggest, then the player would not be able to sign for anyone without the club's consent, or until the dispute had been resolved. That's ridiculous.

I'm afraid that seems to be the purpose of the FIFA Regs (Annex 3 Article 2 para 6). <a class="postlink" href="http://www.fifa.com/mm/01/06/30/78/statusinhalt_en_122007.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.fifa.com/mm/01/06/30/78/stat ... 122007.pdf</a>.

This applies to seniors and juniors alike. It says the player can't sign a contract with a club outside his home Association if there is a contract dispute. The home Association can't issue an ICT. The player is free to join a club in the same Association - always assuming there is one willing to have him, given the fact he is taking a fellow club to court.

It makes it professional suicide for a player to enter into a dispute with his club. It makes it suicide for a club outside his home Association to enter into a contract with 'damaged goods'.