BlueDeadHead
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Conjecture based on what he did every game and kept getting picked by MP. Reasonable, no?
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Jesus Navas
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johnmc
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Conjecture based on what he did every game and kept getting picked by MP. Reasonable, no?
Then why were the same instructions not given on the opposite wing?
BlueDeadHead
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Look, I've seen Navas have numerous opportunities to score. To say otherwise is ridiculous. The amount of times he was in a position to score and fluff it or try to pass instead is there for all to see. You can't say otherwise.
When the ball is on the other side of the pitch a winger should be in the box making another striker more often than not. To suggest a winger should only ever get to the byline and cross and that's all is not true to the position. It's oversimplification to the extreme. To put it another way, should a left back or right back only ever stay on the touchline or shift across into the middle to help out when the attacking team are on the opposite flank.
There are no wingers, inverted or otherwise that have played regularly at a top club who don't score. In fact several wingers were so competent in front of goal they are used as back up strikers or change position altogether.
Sure there is. Navas. I contend that MP has played to his strengths. I think that was a mistake, but I wouldn't have played 442 either. All I am saying is Navas did what he was asked to do. If he wasn't would MP have played him more than any other player in the squad?
BlueDeadHead
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Then why were the same instructions not given on the opposite wing?
Why would you assume you want the same instructions for both wingers? Its much easier to find inverted wingers on the left (like Nolito).
bluesince76
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Look, I've seen Silva have numerous opportunities to score. To say otherwise is ridiculous. The amount of times he was in a position to score and fluff it or try to pass instead is there for all to see. You can't say otherwise.
See what I did there?
Navas doesn't have the instinct/confidence to score goals. Whether any of that can be coached back into him, we'll have to see, but the same certainly goes for Sterling and to another extent for Silva.
He's no Robben and he's never going to get 20 goals a season, but that doesn't mean he can't be a very useful squad player
johnmc
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See what I did there?
Navas doesn't have the instinct/confidence to score goals. Whether any of that can be coached back into him, we'll have to see, but the same certainly goes for Sterling and to another extent for Silva.
He's no Robben and he's never going to get 20 goals a season, but that doesn't mean he can't be a very useful squad player
No I don't see what you did there at all. Silva averages 6-7 goals a season and is regularly top of the assists chart. Not only that he dictates play more often than not. None of which you can say about Navas.
johnmc
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Sure there is. Navas. I contend that MP has played to his strengths. I think that was a mistake, but I wouldn't have played 442 either. All I am saying is Navas did what he was asked to do. If he wasn't would MP have played him more than any other player in the squad?
Sure there is. Navas. I contend that MP has played to his strengths. I think that was a mistake, but I wouldn't have played 442 either. All I am saying is Navas did what he was asked to do. If he wasn't would MP have played him more than any other player in the squad?
Name one, one other than Navas. All I'm asking.
johnmc
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Why would you assume you want the same instructions for both wingers? Its much easier to find inverted wingers on the left (like Nolito).
Should a winger head into the box when the ball is in our possession on the opposite side?
bluesince76
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No I don't see what you did there at all. Silva averages 6-7 goals a season and is regularly top of the assists chart. Not only that he dictates play more often than not. None of which you can say about Navas.
And plays in a completely different position, yet still misses chances or passes when he should shoot.
In terms of Navas' assists, he's out on the wing, so has to cross it. The man in the middle is usually only Aguero. Balls in the air rarely make it to him for obvious reasons, but Aguero doesn't attack the near post. Navas often frustrates me, but when faced with a fullback and two centre halves before you can get to the diminutive forward, what is he supposed to do?
johnmc
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And plays in a completely different position, yet still misses chances or passes when he should shoot.
In terms of Navas' assists, he's out on the wing, so has to cross it. The man in the middle is usually only Aguero. Balls in the air rarely make it to him for obvious reasons, but Aguero doesn't attack the near post. Navas often frustrates me, but when faced with a fullback and two centre halves before you can get to the diminutive forward, what is he supposed to do?
I can forgive him missing chances and not always shooting when he is supposed to if he at least scored a few.
You and I both know what the reaction on this board would be if we were interested in a winger with Navas stats but who clearly put a shift in. To say it's purely Pelligrinis tactics ignores the fact he averages 3 goals a season in his career.
You have still yet to answer about any winger or attacking left or right sided player in a top team that doesn't score. It just doesn't happen. Go through the premier league.
keemcfc
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I feel sick saying this, but Beckham wasn't exactly a goal machine... He was so adored for his creation (from open play at least)Name one, one other than Navas. All I'm asking.
As is Navas. Now I'm not saying Navas is without his flaws, of which he obviously has many at this level and we do need an upgrade, however he's still a very good player in my book, frustrating at times but I'd have him in any (realistic) squad in the world.
richards30
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His end product is woeful but no one can fault his commitment and work rate for the team! Been a good signing has navas and was cheap for the price we paid.
johnmc
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I feel sick saying this, but Beckham wasn't exactly a goal machine... He was so adored for his creation (from open play at least)
As is Navas. Now I'm not saying Navas is without his flaws, of which he obviously has many at this level and we do need an upgrade, however he's still a very good player in my book, frustrating at times but I'd have him in any (realistic) squad in the world.
???? Beckham averaged 7/8 goals a season in the premier league, 10+ in all comps and however many assists. I'm not asking for Navas to be a goal machine by any stretch. 10 in all comps should be achievable easily.
johnmc
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His end product is woeful but no one can fault his commitment and work rate for the team! Been a good signing has navas and was cheap for the price we paid.
Agreed. We are now in a position where we need more. Gundogan won't add much, Yayas goals will be gone, and we are likely to play a one or three depending how you look at it but Navas would be classed as an attacking player in a Pep team and they have to contribute goals.
BlueDeadHead
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Name one, one other than Navas. All I'm asking.
You are completely missing my point. I am not a Navas apologist. I think he is really good at one really limited thing. He is a traditional winger. Thats it. He is not a traditional winger with a good left foot who can cut inside and score. He is just a traditional winger. In that role (and that role only) he is not going to score and there is no expectation for him to. You can look at his whole career and see that. He is what he is.
Why MP decided to make him the guy who got the most minutes is beyond me...but he did. That is the problem, not Navas's ability to score. Nobody ever has expected Navas to score.
BlueDeadHead
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Should a winger head into the box when the ball is in our possession on the opposite side?
Depends on the players and whether they can shoot and score. If not, they are better pulling the full back away towards the touchline.
johnmc
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Depends on the players and whether they can shoot and score. If not, they are better pulling the full back away towards the touchline.
No because the full back will never stay out on the touchline where he can't affect play. If the ball is on the opposite wing you will never see a full back still on the opposite flank. They will have shifted across regardless of whether the winger goes into the box or not.
BlueDeadHead
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Name one, one other than Navas. All I'm asking.
And all I am asking is to name the other traditional wingers at top clubs that you can compare (in their role) to Navas. You keep saying Bayern but then admitted it wasn't Robben. Is it Coman or Costa? Do you really think they are limited traditional wingers like Navas?
Neville Kneville
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Agreed. We are now in a position where we need more. Gundogan won't add much, Yayas goals will be gone, and we are likely to play a one or three depending how you look at it but Navas would be classed as an attacking player in a Pep team and they have to contribute goals.
He might end up at fullback for all we know.
BlueDeadHead
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He might end up at fullback for all we know.
If he is here in September, that is where I think he will play.