Jo Swinson

Neville Kneville said:
They have every angle covered & presumably Corbyn will teeter toward whichever looks most promising.

But I imagine the Tories will also claim to be, once again, trying to 'get a deal' by threatening 'no deal' even if it gets hoofed into touch in a few weeks.

I'd have slightly more than zero respect for them if they just admitted there isn't one & they will leave without one if folks vote for them.
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I agree with the first sentence entirely, but regards the second couple, I am not so sure.

I am in sales and negotiate contracts for my day job. And sales 101 - something I was taught 30+ years ago - tells you that buyers will not stop asking for more until you say no. There comes a point in every negotiation where the customer says "we must have X, or the deal is off" and you have to say "sorry, then the deal is off because I cannot give it". Often, what follows is a period of silence whilst both sides wait for the other to cave in.

It's a good analogy with the EU negotiations. The simple fact is, they are never going to give us a better deal unless we threaten to walk. And that doesn't just mean saying it, it means ACTING like it. Just saying it, has no clout if all our actions indicate it's just a bluff.

And look where this has got us already. It's amazing (actually entirely predictable) how a bit of hard talking from Johnson has already dramatically changed the EU's stance. When May was PM, the EU was saying there is absolutely no possibility whatsoever of improving what was on the table. Maybe some warm words of comfort at best, but NOTHING would be changed in the legally binding agreements. We were told the negotiating teams were disbanded and there was no-one to negotiate with.

And now look: The EU are saying they are ready to consider our proposals, and their only complaint is that they haven't seen clarity on what we propose. This is huge shift in their position already.

The "no Brexit without a deal" legislation was such a terribly bad idea, because it's seriously weakened Johnson's position. But it's not totally undermined it. He still has the threat of winning a GE and leaving on a hard Brexit after he's won. So the EU whilst somewhat pleased with us caving in with that ludicrous legislation, are still not home and dry.

So as it stands, I think there's still a whiff of a possibility of a compromise deal by October 31st. The fact that we are not chasing around the EU like lap dogs should not been seen as a sign that we don't want a deal. Quite the opposite actually.
 
Chippy_boy said:
I agree with the first sentence entirely, but regards the second couple, I am not so sure.

I am in sales and negotiate contracts for my day job. And sales 101 - something I was taught 30+ years ago - tells you that buyers will not stop asking for more until you say no. There comes a point in every negotiation where the customer says "we must have X, or the deal is off" and you have to say "sorry, then the deal is off because I cannot give it". Often, what follows is a period of silence whilst both sides wait for the other to cave in.

It's a good analogy with the EU negotiations. The simple fact is, they are never going to give us a better deal unless we threaten to walk. And that doesn't just mean saying it, it means ACTING like it. Just saying it, has no clout if all our actions indicate it's just a bluff.

And look where this has got us already. It's amazing (actually entirely predictable) how a bit of hard talking from Johnson has already dramatically changed the EU's stance. When May was PM, the EU was saying there is absolutely no possibility whatsoever of improving what was on the table. Maybe some warm words of comfort at best, but NOTHING would be changed in the legally binding agreements. We were told the negotiating teams were disbanded and there was no-one to negotiate with.

And now look: The EU are saying they are ready to consider our proposals, and their only complaint is that they haven't seen clarity on what we propose. This is huge shift in their position already.

The "no Brexit without a deal" legislation was such a terribly bad idea, because it's seriously weakened Johnson's position. But it's not totally undermined it. He still has the threat of winning a GE and leaving on a hard Brexit after he's won. So the EU whilst somewhat pleased with us caving in with that ludicrous legislation, are still not home and dry.

So as it stands, I think there's still a whiff of a possibility of a compromise deal by October 31st. The fact that we are not chasing around the EU like lap dogs should not been seen as a sign that we don't want a deal. Quite the opposite actually.
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There is absoluteley NO CHANCE of a 'compromise' deal. It's utter bullshit.

There could be a rewording of the Irish backstop, allowing the Government to bring back the exact same deal May signed up to. If Parliament then decides to vote in favour of it, then it just means WE have caved in.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
That reminds me of a quip by Dave Allen, I think, when the priest was telling them how Jesus fed the 5000 with
5 loaves and two fishes,
''Ah, but were they full afterwards?''
Click to expand...

My old mans favourite and a childhood memory watching Dave ;-)
 
Neville Kneville said:
There is absoluteley NO CHANCE of a 'compromise' deal. It's utter bullshit.

There could be a rewording of the Irish backstop, allowing the Government to bring back the exact same deal May signed up to. If Parliament then decides to vote in favour of it, then it just means WE have caved in.
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Possibly. The likelihood of us having to cave in and accept a shitty deal has been made much greater by the idiotic no-deal-no-Brexit legislation.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Possibly. The likelihood of us having to cave in and accept a shitty deal has been made much greater by the idiotic no-deal-no-Brexit legislation.
Click to expand...

The problem is, that there is no real solution to the Irish border problem, other than a border in the sea.

Otherwise, there is nothing wrong with May's withdrawal agreement, apart from the fact that we are better off in the EU, than relying on Donald Trump & the Chinese.
 
Neville Kneville said:
The problem is, that there is no real solution to the Irish border problem, other than a border in the sea.

Otherwise, there is nothing wrong with May's withdrawal agreement, apart from the fact that we are better off in the EU, than relying on Donald Trump & the Chinese.
Click to expand...
True enough.
 
Chippy_boy said:
I agree with the first sentence entirely, but regards the second couple, I am not so sure.

I am in sales and negotiate contracts for my day job. And sales 101 - something I was taught 30+ years ago - tells you that buyers will not stop asking for more until you say no. There comes a point in every negotiation where the customer says "we must have X, or the deal is off" and you have to say "sorry, then the deal is off because I cannot give it". Often, what follows is a period of silence whilst both sides wait for the other to cave in.

It's a good analogy with the EU negotiations. The simple fact is, they are never going to give us a better deal unless we threaten to walk. And that doesn't just mean saying it, it means ACTING like it. Just saying it, has no clout if all our actions indicate it's just a bluff.
.
Click to expand...

It’s not as simple as that, the UK has much more to lose with a no deal that the EU does. So our position is not exactly strong when threatening a no deal.

It was either posted on here by someone else or in the media but an analogy was given that threatening a no deal is like Boris shouting across the Grand Canyon to the EU, “if you don’t give us a good deal I’ll jump in!”
 
It's not damning for some of us, anyone backing revoke would be punch to farage's judy. Personally , the message not the messenger is all i care about, farage and his racist bollocks far outweigh his utterly loathsome personality. Dragging up history is not going to stop brexit, the libs did this or that i know i was there and do not give a single fuck. Labour left a massive hole by fence sitting ,thank fuck some one has jumped in to fly the remain flag .
 
Here is how Swinson has voted

FOR

The Bedroom Tax
Reduced benefits for the disabled
Tripling tuition fees
Selling UK forests
Reforms to allow privatisations of the NHS
Culling Badgers
Privatisation of Royal Mail
Restricting Legal Aid
A NO DEAL BREXIT

AGAINST

The Mansion Tax
A bankers bonus levy
Increasing taxes for those on over £150,000
Against raising sickness benefits in line with inflation
Regulation of Fracking
Transferring powers to Scotland
Slowing rises in Rail fares.

And people are buying, the centrist nonsense, she is an Orange book liberal, to the right of the Tories. Don't trust her.
 
Rascal said:
Here is how Swinson has voted

FOR

The Bedroom Tax
Reduced benefits for the disabled
Tripling tuition fees
Selling UK forests
Reforms to allow privatisations of the NHS
Culling Badgers
Privatisation of Royal Mail
Restricting Legal Aid
A NO DEAL BREXIT

AGAINST

The Mansion Tax
A bankers bonus levy
Increasing taxes for those on over £150,000
Against raising sickness benefits in line with inflation
Regulation of Fracking
Transferring powers to Scotland
Slowing rises in Rail fares.

And people are buying, the centrist nonsense, she is an Orange book liberal, to the right of the Tories. Don't trust her.
Click to expand...

When did she vote for a no deal Brexit?

Also, was this when she was in government as part of the coalition?
 
Ban-jani said:
When did she vote for a no deal Brexit?

Also, was this when she was in government as part of the coalition?
Click to expand...

Most of that is where they were clearly acting to temper the tories but had to support them as a minister in the give and take coalition i.e. supporting watered down tory proposals as part of the deal to water them down.

But don't let facts get in the way.
 
Ban-jani said:
When did she vote for a no deal Brexit?

Also, was this when she was in government as part of the coalition?
Click to expand...

Not sure about the no deal Brexit, but she is a charlatan. The FBPE crowd on twitter love her, proof that she is a not right, because they are all fucking mental

Does it matter, if it does it proves she will do anything for power.

And don't forget the Lib Dems voted in favour of

The disastrous health and social care ACT
The hostile environment of May
VAT raised to 20%
Cut the top rate of tax

And they pledged to keep sure start centres open and have 3,000 more police on the streets and voted against both.

Swinson is a tory with tits in a yellow dress.
 
Hesperus said:
It’s not as simple as that, the UK has much more to lose with a no deal that the EU does. So our position is not exactly strong when threatening a no deal.

It was either posted on here by someone else or in the media but an analogy was given that threatening a no deal is like Boris shouting across the Grand Canyon to the EU, “if you don’t give us a good deal I’ll jump in!”
Click to expand...
Agreed we have much more to lose.

But they don't have nothing to lose. In order of priority, the EU would prefer:

1. We cancel Brexit and stay in - best
2. We leave on the terms of the shitty May deal
3. We leave with them giving us further concessions on the May deal
4. We leave with no deal - worst

Clearly whilst they expect the outcome to be either 1 or 2, then they are never going to offer us 3.

3 only becomes attractive to the EU if the alternative is 4.
 
Rascal said:
Here is how Swinson has voted

FOR

The Bedroom Tax
Reduced benefits for the disabled
Tripling tuition fees
Selling UK forests
Reforms to allow privatisations of the NHS
Culling Badgers
Privatisation of Royal Mail
Restricting Legal Aid
A NO DEAL BREXIT

AGAINST

The Mansion Tax
A bankers bonus levy
Increasing taxes for those on over £150,000
Against raising sickness benefits in line with inflation
Regulation of Fracking
Transferring powers to Scotland
Slowing rises in Rail fares.

And people are buying, the centrist nonsense, she is an Orange book liberal, to the right of the Tories. Don't trust her.
Click to expand...
She sounds perfect.
 
Rascal said:
Not sure about the no deal Brexit, but she is a charlatan. The FBPE crowd on twitter love her, proof that she is a not right, because they are all fucking mental

Does it matter, if it does it proves she will do anything for power.

And don't forget the Lib Dems voted in favour of

The disastrous health and social care ACT
The hostile environment of May
VAT raised to 20%
Cut the top rate of tax

And they pledged to keep sure start centres open and have 3,000 more police on the streets and voted against both.

Swinson is a tory with tits in a yellow dress.
Click to expand...

It was in your list that’s all, I was intrigued to see when she voted for a no deal Brexit.

Well it is important because when you’re in government you are often required to back the plans the government has put forward, plus there is always the whip.
 
Gaudion M said:
Most of that is where they were clearly acting to temper the tories but had to support them as a minister in the give and take coalition i.e. supporting watered down tory proposals as part of the deal to water them down.

But don't let facts get in the way.
Click to expand...

Yes absolutely. They reigned the Tories in and that was the point I was getting to.
 
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