Johnson was as committed to Northern Powerhouse Rail as he had been to Crossrail

[Citizen of Legoland]

I don't think they are excuses, it's just reality. Building things is much harder here because more or less everything already exists albeit usually in an older (and crapper) form. You then have to get around the legal issues and problems of building.

In other countries they didn't have these pre-existing railway lines so they could build and dedicate them from scratch for high speed trains. Look at the Channel Tunnel, it didn't exist so they built it, it's silly to compare that with the victorian age Manchester to Leeds line.

I looked and more or less the entirety of the Italian high-speed train network was built within the last 20 years. However, one line in Italy travelling 96 miles cost them £6 billion but HS2 here travelling just 200 miles will apparently cost £107 billion. Clearly the technical problems of acquiring land and building the thing is a huge problem too.

Concrete's cheap for bridges and tunnels in Italy, especially around Sicily way.

 

[metalblue]

Our base comparison is Europe. Germany lags behind France because they faced years of political and legal delays which had to be overcome. Similar countries with similar issues. What can be done there can be done here. It’s a question of wanting to and clearly we don’t. So, let’s stop producing reports recommending we need this or that rail link, promising to do it and then reneging.

Once HS2 is completed won’t we have a larger HS network than Germany or the Netherlands? Didn’t Germany just take 30 years to get to where they are now? Like you say comparable. But still lagging France, Spain.

I don’t disagree that saying you’re going to build HS2E then pulling out is shit. It might be the better decision for a number of reasons (it might not) but when you’re saying you’re going to do it only 5 months ago… you shouldn’t back out.

But that wasn’t the purpose of my post, I was merely responding to someone asking about Chinese dams to say China get shit done because they don’t give a fuck what they bulldoze to achieve their goals, and their planning is a little “suspect” shall we say.

 

[inbetween]

Once HS2 is completed won’t we have a larger HS network than Germany or the Netherlands? Didn’t Germany just take 30 years to get to where they are now? Like you say comparable. But still lagging France, Spain.

I don’t disagree that saying you’re going to build HS2E then pulling out is shit. It might be the better decision for a number of reasons (it might not) but when you’re saying you’re going to do it only 5 months ago… you shouldn’t back out.

But that wasn’t the purpose of my post, I was merely responding to someone asking about Chinese dams to say China get shit done because they don’t give a fuck what they bulldoze to achieve their goals, and their planning is a little “suspect” shall we say.

Building HS2 doesn't have a lot of sway with the public and I think most people oppose. However, this is where the government needs to redirect cancelled money to improving what we already have, that's their main failing.

As for China well isn't land ownership forbidden there? All they have to do is knock down peoples farms and livelihoods, move them somewhere else and hey presto a rail network.

 

[crazyg]

You mean Michael Green its about the only thing he and the rest of the wooden tops cabinet are good at.

The Cabinet


The Woodentops

Easy mistake to make.

 

[East Level 2]

All that money will go on Crossrail 2. The London north to south route.

They don't like spending money outside of London let alone the North.

Maybe he meant levelling up north London and south London rather than levelling up the north of the country to the south. It's an easy mistake to make when you're busy.
And he's very busy: telling lies, dressing up in hi-vis vests, telling lies, trying to justify corruption, telling lies, refusing to answer direct questions and erm telling lies. He probably does other stuff as well but they are irrelevant as they don't include anything to benefit the nation.

 

[inchy14]

Maybe he meant levelling up north London and south London rather than levelling up the north of the country to the south. It's an easy mistake to make when you're busy.
And he's very busy: telling lies, dressing up in hi-vis vests, telling lies, trying to justify corruption, telling lies, refusing to answer direct questions and erm telling lies. He probably does other stuff as well but they are irrelevant as they don't include anything to benefit he and his cronies….

 

[BobKowalski]

‘On the day government announced its Northern rail plans, it took responsibility for developing them any further off the Northern transport body whose Manchester to Leeds proposal it rejected.

Pretty widespread view that this is the beginning of end for Transport for the North, certainly in any meaningful way. It is being downgraded to an advisory role. Labour has called it a 'Whitehall power grab'

Ministers take responsibility off Northern body in ‘devolution death knell’

Responsibility for developing East-West high speed rail links is being pulled from Transport for the North with immediate effect following yesterday’s rail plan announcement

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

 

[mat]

I have southern mates who are so used to transport such as trains running Every 15 minutes from there station into the capital who can't understand why I'm used to an hourly service into Nottingham.

Fuck HS2/Northern Powerhouse bullshit. An upgrade on signalling and investment in more trains increasing services will do me.

Not as if there's a shortage of trains. There's hundreds of the fuckers stored up next to Worksop station and other areas of the country.

 

[Mike D]

@Metal Blue What do you think of our authoritarian government. After the backlash of the HS2 being scraped up North Boris has gone full Trump
The government has cut funding from the North’s umbrella transport authority and stripped it of responsibility for developing Northern Powerhouse Rail.
Interesting take from Ken Clarke

 

[andyhinch]

I have southern mates who are so used to transport such as trains running Every 15 minutes from there station into the capital who can't understand why I'm used to an hourly service into Nottingham.

Fuck HS2/Northern Powerhouse bullshit. An upgrade on signalling and investment in more trains increasing services will do me.

Not as if there's a shortage of trains. There's hundreds of the fuckers stored up next to Worksop station and other areas of the country.

I’d be happy if we just got more trams on match day tbh.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

Land size of Netherlands - 42,000 sq kms. High speed rail 2.9%

Land size of UK - 240,000 sq kms. High speed rail 0.7%

It‘s also about capacity and affordability.

Dutch trains go and come a lot further than the Netherlands. I've caught an InterCity in Eindhoven and I'm sure it came from the depths of Germany. We're a bit stuck! Dutch trains are often double deckers, and probably haven't anything like a Victorian tunnel to pass through!

 

[Vic]

You need to make a fair comparison here because did the services in Finland or Sweden already exist albeit on antiquated old lines? If they had an old line already performing those services then there's no chance that they'd build a separate competing line purely for speed or even capacity.

It's worth noting that the trains that we do have aren't slow, the Virgin trains for example get up to 130mph. There is just no need for an alternative service on a completely separate line that just so happens to go a bit faster, that is the idiocy of HS2.

The reality is that people will choose the cheaper option over the faster option and I'll bet my house that once HS2 opens it's trains will be empty and the Virgin type trains will continue to be packed to the rafters. For other countries there aren't two options so it's not a fair comparison.

Anyone referring to Virgin trains obviously is not "up to soeed" on these matters.

The faster that express trains go on existing lines, the harder it is to mix them with slower commuter trains and freight.

And uprating existing lines means years of disruption on those lines.