Jorginho

[Neville Kneville]

Imo in hindsight it was right to bring Busquets through, although Touré was obviously great at the time. But don't let that distract from my original point that Touré of old would have been great for the pivot role.




I think there's a lot of sense in this, particularly in how Liverpool's press will always happen and there's not much that can be done. Unfortunately, and this is where difference of opinion may come in, I'm not convinced we'll ever be able to avoid the defending like clowns when we're sliced open.

I'm only assuming here, but I imagine think Pep's systems at a fundamental level are identical; whether we're playing Liverpool, Burnley, 10/11 Barcelona, 11/12 Madrid etc.. So what I mean is, in part of that, we're going to play by holding the ball as much as possible and our means of restricting opposition chances is through excellent possession play, as opposed to better and more intelligent defending. Which is I suppose a product of the way we're coached.

So against the likes of Liverpool, we need a different way of beating the press otherwise we risk trouble (obviously). What we lack at the moment, is either a complete ability to play around their press (like Napoli), or a complete ability to just simply shrug off the press (like Tottenham). A problem we kind of have at the moment is that we play the way that requires the former, but of our regular midfield only Silva fits the bill. De Bruyne and Fernandinho fit the latter style.

Having Fernandinho and De Bruyne in midfield gives us a lot of direct attacking power but on the flip side makes us a bit clunky. Which as I said before works 9 games out of 10 but in the 1 game we really need to hold onto the ball it becomes a problem. Against the likes of Liverpool where we hit a cycle whereby we make errors, lose our cool and make more errors and so on, what we need is individuals who are just better at keeping the ball so that we're less predisposed to fall into these pits.

Pep actually tried to circumnavigate the problem at Anfield by playing the regular 3 with Gundogan out wide which was a big mistake. But weirdly enough, it looked a lot better briefly when in the 2nd half he swapped Gundogan and De Bruyne around. Gundogan and Silva brought a level of control and Fernandinho provided the back up, with De Bruyne being the usual threat out wide. Maybe that's the solution.


But my point is long term I don't see Silva or De Bruyne being dropped for these games (why should they be?). So we need someone else in there that can really control things. That's where Jorginho comes in. Fernandinho would be an excellent player to bring on in the 2nd half of these games IMO. Once the press gets tried he could just bully them completely (like in the 2nd half of the 5-0) and let our attackers run riot.

It's swings & roundabouts imo though. We could just as easily then go 0-1 to a simple header because Fern isn't there.

Stones & Otta were, imo, the best central defence 2 in europe earlier this season (after being full of holes in a back 3). Vinny is still THE best on his day. Walker was great at fullback, Delph too. Laporte is a great signing.

In the league game at Anfield, Otta ran underneath a straight ball & headed it backwards then everyone behind him fell to pieces & it's 1-0. That's not going to be stopped by Jorginho.

Nor the offside break by Salah in the Champs Lg. The next bit was easy to defend.

Jorginho gives us great options but we have to stand up better in those kind of games.


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[mccity]

It's swings & roundabouts imo though. We could just as easily then go 0-1 to a simple header because Fern isn't there.

Stones & Otta were, imo, the best central defence 2 in europe earlier this season (after being full of holes in a back 3). Vinny is still THE best on his day. Walker was great at fullback, Delph too. Laporte is a great signing.

In the league game at Anfield, Otta ran underneath a straight ball & headed it backwards then everyone behind him fell to pieces & it's 1-0. That's not going to be stopped by Jorginho.

Nor the offside break by Salah in the Champs Lg. The next bit was easy to defend.

Jorginho gives us great options but we have to stand up better in those kind of games.


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Aha, precisely where I said we'd have the difference of opinion ;)

But you're first point is big. We play a bunch of passers and lose then all of a sudden it's 'Why didn't we play any muscle?'.

Like I said, I assume that the goal is to completely reduce their opportunities to allow us a chance to screw up. Not to defend better. Which seems dumb but maybe that's the mentality that allowed us to play as well as we did for the most part this season. Or maybe it's just dumb haha

I think about what Pep said about last season. It was setting the ground works for this season. This season will be the same for the next. Although that probably strengthens both our cases when I think about it..

 

[Neville Kneville]

Aha, precisely where I said we'd have the difference of opinion ;)

But you're first point is big. We play a bunch of passers and lose then all of a sudden it's 'Why didn't we play any muscle?'.

Like I said, I assume that the goal is to completely reduce their opportunities to allow us a chance to screw up. Not to defend better. Which seems dumb but maybe that's the mentality that allowed us to play as well as we did for the most part this season. Or maybe it's just dumb haha

I think about what Pep said about last season. It was setting the ground works for this season. This season will be the same for the next. Although that probably strengthens both our cases when I think about it..

I'm sure you are right, that Pep prefers to prevent the problem from happening by controlling it.

But defending properly, when things go wrong, is as much a skill as anything else imo & sometimes we don't master that facet of football as well as we do the others. It's rare Fern uses muscle to stop last touch disasters, just ability & intelligence imo & I think he's one of the best ever at combining that with being a top footballer.

If we solve that as a team, I think we're unstoppable.

Jorginho will help the first part but we still have to improve on the second.

 

[Dax777]

Aha, precisely where I said we'd have the difference of opinion ;)

But you're first point is big. We play a bunch of passers and lose then all of a sudden it's 'Why didn't we play any muscle?'.

Like I said, I assume that the goal is to completely reduce their opportunities to allow us a chance to screw up. Not to defend better. Which seems dumb but maybe that's the mentality that allowed us to play as well as we did for the most part this season. Or maybe it's just dumb haha

I think about what Pep said about last season. It was setting the ground works for this season. This season will be the same for the next. Although that probably strengthens both our cases when I think about it..

That was the goal. And it's not dumb at all. It's genius. The moment you are defending, you've already lost.

Possession= controlling the make and manner of victory.
Defending= hoping to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

@Neville Kneville argument misses the point, it's not about the instances that led to goals, but rather the context in which those instances arose.

The offside goal came off an unforced bad pass from Sane. Followef by a cul de sac run up field by Ota' for another. But prior to the goals in CL or the league at anfield, we had on multiple occasions given up the ball (Sane's case in CL was the first bad TO- so unfortunate), But the general reaction to the press is a level of discomfort that affects our whole team play.

That uncomfortable situation leads to the eventual errors that lead to goals. The particular ones that end up as goals aren't as relevant. As that particular scenario mat not occur in future. What matters is the surrounding context that causes these goal conceding ourcomes. With Liverpool, it's the press and our inability to deal with it.

I can imagine Pep lining up like this against Pool next season.

Ederson
Danilo..Stones.. Laporte.. Mendy
..................Jorghino..................
.......Gundogan.......Silva........
Mahrez................... Debryune
....................... Jesus...


And suddenly, the press is significantly less effective.

 

[Chi-town blues]

Shame we don’t a song for him .

 

[Neville Kneville]

That was the goal. And it's not dumb at all. It's genius. The moment you are defending, you've already lost.

Possession= controlling the make and manner of victory.
Defending= hoping to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

@Neville Kneville argument misses the point, it's not about the instances that led to goals, but rather the context in which those instances arose.

The offside goal came off an unforced bad pass from Sane. Followef by a cul de sac run up field by Ota' for another. But prior to the goals in CL or the league at anfield, we had on multiple occasions given up the ball (Sane's case in CL was the first bad TO- so unfortunate), But the general reaction to the press is a level of discomfort that affects our whole team play.

That uncomfortable situation leads to the eventual errors that lead to goals. The particular ones that end up as goals aren't as relevant. As that particular scenario mat not occur in future. What matters is the surrounding context that causes these goal conceding ourcomes. With Liverpool, it's the press and our inability to deal with it.

I can imagine Pep lining up like this against Pool next season.

Ederson
Danilo..Stones.. Laporte.. Mendy
..................Jorghino..................
.......Gundogan.......Silva........
Mahrez................... Debryune
....................... Jesus...


And suddenly, the press is significantly less effective.

It isn't possible to stop somene lumping a ball forward as Liverpool did for the first goal in the Prem game, or crossing a diagonal as we saw Utd do. They are only human beings, they will make mistakes or get tired.

Nobody can be perfect on the ball or run perfectly off it.

What you can do, is cut down elementary defensive mistakes when the other mistakes happen, which we completely failed to do v Liverpool & Utd (& Wigan).

Jorginho is the bloke to help minimise the potential of mistakes, but he isn't the bloke to fix the bit when it goes pear shaped, as it always will, in football. That requires better concentration & composure from the whole team unit & the individuals within it.

 

[Dax777]

It isn't possible to stop somene lumping a ball forward as Liverpool did for the first goal in the Prem game, or crossing a diagonal as we saw Utd do. They are only human beings, they will make mistakes or get tired.

Nobody can be perfect on the ball or run perfectly off it.

What you can do, is cut down elementary defensive mistakes when the other mistakes happen, which we completely failed to do v Liverpool & Utd (& Wigan).

Jorginho is the bloke to help minimise the potential of mistakes, but he isn't the bloke to fix the bit when it goes pear shaped, as it always will, in football. That requires better concentration & composure from the whole team unit & the individuals within it.

I don't disagree. But the goal is for there not to be enough of that to derail us overall.

Because we play expansive football, we will get caught in bad siruations every now and then. It will be a 50/50 proposition when that happens. The goal is, and should be, to limit those incidences drastically. And we best achieve that goal with superior possession.

When those breakdowns happen, every now and then, which they will, we will survive better with the consequences because we know those instances are few and our potential to create more are greater.

 

[Neville Kneville]

I don't disagree. But the goal is for there not to be enough of that to derail us overall.

Because we play expansive football, we will get caught in bad siruations every now and then. It will be a 50/50 proposition when that happens. The goal is, and should be, to limit those incidences drastically. And we best achieve that goal with superior possession.

When those breakdowns happen, every now and then, which they will, we will survive better with the consequences because we know those instances are few and our potential to create more are greater.

Of course. But we wren't expanding when Liverpool scored their first at Anfield, nor any of the 3 Utd scored, we just defended, like shit.

And the likelihood is, Jorginho will also suffer, in the same duff periods of games, unless the team plays with more authority on the occasion it goes wrong.

Against Liverpool, we were shite. It wasn't one player, or even the tactics, it was just pure, communal shite. They could have scored literally any kind of goal, because we completely caved in, as a team, every mistake in the book, was unfolding.

Against most others, we were at worst good, to incredibly brilliant & got away with the shite bits, by minimising them & blew them away.

We were also totally shite, early on, away v Napoli, where Jorginho was brilliant. But we then stepped it up & fucked them over including Jorginho and suddenly, from being a footballing genius, he was the invisible man, becaese we moved too fast for him & for Napoli, & they just ceased to exist, when KDB etc stepped it up a gear, just as Sothampton's midfield suddenly disappeared when City stepped it up for a short while there.

When we are functioning as a team, as we can, we are already irresistable now.

It's when those standards drop & we are failling to answer it, that we have to be more pragmatic (even Pep went for that at Spurs).

Jorginho is a huge talent, but he can't do it on his own when that happens, just like Fern, he will need help.

We can improve on that, irrespective of signings. It is our biggest weakness & it's not a necessary weakness just because we play football, it's just people getting elementry stuff wrong.

 

[nmc]

Shame we don’t a song for him .

Sussudio by the late Phil Collins has to be the song - someone more talented than me or Phil Collins must be able to write a few lyrics?

 

[pudge]

Sussudio by the late Phil Collins has to be the song - someone more talented than me or Phil Collins must be able to write a few lyrics?

Please no, please, can we have one player whose name ends in "-ho" who doesn't get it pronounced with an "-io"?

The subsequent songs are excruciating.

"We've got Robinio"

"Ooooohhh Fernandinio"

"Iheanachio, Iheanachio, Iheanachio..."