Joy Division / New Order thread

[Northernstorirs]

I thought the Blue Monday Diaries was brilliant, but I suspect it’s only for a hardcore fan like I used to be. I like the intimate details of how they wrote, recorded and socialised back then.

Barney’s book is rubbish. Hooky’s is explosive with all the drugs, sex and gossip. A lot of people in Manchester were furious at him for it. He’s obviously a bit of a knob but I can’t help agreeeing with his opinion on the music: that when Barney started interacting with other musicians, and writing songs with more traditional structures and keys, they lost what made them special. That occurred when he went off to do Electronic and I must say that the music since then backs that up in my opinion.

Yeah I think he's (Hooky) right about the change in approach to music with applying structure and avoiding certain keys etc. It limits the music you provide and musicians are reluctant to take a gamble which is what contributed to the success of JD and early days of NO.

As mentioned, I'm quite new to both bands. Really like JD's UP, Closer and Substance albums. Gave the "Warsaw" RCA sessions a listen and you can pick up the punk influence a lot more as the tracks are faster. Hooky suggested that the hands off approach and naivety of the band combined with Martin Hannett's wizardry contributed to the raw and unique tunes.

I have really enjoyed the early New Order stuff (P,C &L, Temptation, Blue Monday etc) but I feel with NO their tunes are either genius or absolute toss, there's no middle ground tracks you can just sit through and enjoy. As time goes on, NO songs are progressively worse with the exception of "true faith". But that's my opinion, one man's meat is another man's poison.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Yeah I think he's (Hooky) right about the change in approach to music with applying structure and avoiding certain keys etc. It limits the music you provide and musicians are reluctant to take a gamble which is what contributed to the success of JD and early days of NO.

As mentioned, I'm quite new to both bands. Really like JD's UP, Closer and Substance albums. Gave the "Warsaw" RCA sessions a listen and you can pick up the punk influence a lot more as the tracks are faster. Hooky suggested that the hands off approach and naivety of the band and Martin Hannett's wizardry contributed to the raw and unique tunes.

I have really enjoyed the early New Order stuff (P,C &L, Temptation, Blue Monday etc) but I feel with NO their tunes are either genius or absolute toss, there's no middle ground tracks you can just sit through and enjoy. As time goes on, NO songs are progressively worse with the exception of "true faith". But that's my opinion, one man's meat is another man's poison.

I think they were the best and most influential band of the 80s. If you listen to their key tracks from that era they were long, meandering and largely instrumental. The vocal was just another instrument. They were like a post-punk Pink Floyd and nobody else was really doing what they did, pre-dating “indie-dance” by many years. Live back then they could absolutely soar like an angel or they could sound tunelessly awful - often within the same gig. That’s why we loved them though. They were ambitious and wayward. They didn’t mime. They didn’t put their pictures or even the band name on the covers but those covers looked like works of art. They didn’t promote their records, in fact it sometimes almost seemed like they tried to hide them. Some of that was the Factory ethos of course but it’s been forgotten how different that made them back then.

The awful performance of their first hit, Blue Monday on Top of the Pops sums them up: for the first time they had a crossover hit on their hands so they stood there, looking cool, refusing to mime and ensuring that the track became the first in history to drop in the charts after a TOTP performance.

In terms of tracks, here’s a few off the top of my head that for me represent them at their best:

Eligia
Lonesome Tonight
Sunrise
Your Silent Face
Everything’s Gone Green
Vanishing Point
Age of Consent
Regret

 

[Nightmare Walking]

I think they were the best and most influential band of the 80s. If you listen to their key tracks from that era they were long, meandering and largely instrumental. The vocal was just another instrument. They were like a post-punk Pink Floyd and nobody else was really doing what they did, pre-dating “indie-dance” by many years. Live back then they could absolutely soar like an angel or they could sound tunelessly awful - often within the same gig. That’s why we loved them though. They were ambitious and wayward. They didn’t mime. They didn’t put their pictures or even the band name on the covers but those covers looked like works of art. They didn’t promote their records, in fact it sometimes almost seemed like they tried to hide them. Some of that was the Factory ethos of course but it’s been forgotten how different that made them back then.

The awful performance of their first hit, Blue Monday on Top of the Pops sums them up: for the first time they had a crossover hit on their hands so they stood there, looking cool, refusing to mime and ensuring that the track became the first in history to drop in the charts after a TOTP performance.

In terms of tracks, here’s a few off the top of my head that for me represent them at their best:

Eligia
Lonesome Tonight
Sunrise
Your Silent Face
Everything’s Gone Green
Vanishing Point
Age of Consent
Regret

I think Depeche Mode have been better and more influential. New Orders best songs are as good as the best Depeche Mode songs, but Depeche Mode have far more good songs than New Order. Depeche Modes albums are also better than New Orders. From Black Celebration through to Songs of Faith and Devotion, they had a run of 4 albums which are stronger than any New Order album.

 

[Out on blue 6]

Power Corruption and Lies
Lowlife
Brotherhood
Substance
Technique
I like Depeche Mode a lot but love New Order
That's why music is a great conversation topic.

 

[Northernstorirs]

I think they were the best and most influential band of the 80s. If you listen to their key tracks from that era they were long, meandering and largely instrumental. The vocal was just another instrument. They were like a post-punk Pink Floyd and nobody else was really doing what they did, pre-dating “indie-dance” by many years. Live back then they could absolutely soar like an angel or they could sound tunelessly awful - often within the same gig. That’s why we loved them though. They were ambitious and wayward. They didn’t mime. They didn’t put their pictures or even the band name on the covers but those covers looked like works of art. They didn’t promote their records, in fact it sometimes almost seemed like they tried to hide them. Some of that was the Factory ethos of course but it’s been forgotten how different that made them back then.

The awful performance of their first hit, Blue Monday on Top of the Pops sums them up: for the first time they had a crossover hit on their hands so they stood there, looking cool, refusing to mime and ensuring that the track became the first in history to drop in the charts after a TOTP performance.

In terms of tracks, here’s a few off the top of my head that for me represent them at their best:

Eligia
Lonesome Tonight
Sunrise
Your Silent Face
Everything’s Gone Green
Vanishing Point
Age of Consent
Regret

This is what I really like about JD/NO, their artwork was superb. As you say, there was no self obsessed generic covers involving the band, just brilliant artwork to serve the fans. I believe Bernard provided a lot of input and Peter Saville carried out the design work. Call me sad but having procured a few NO/JD records, I can happily admire the artwork as I listen to the album.

I'm still very new to NO so my opinion carries little weight and more than happy to stream more of their albums again. I am a big fan of some of their tracks (temptation is probably my favourite). I also enjoy their earlier tracks as you sense and pick up the transition from JD to NO and entering a new phase of music. I also think it's commendable that they are one of very few bands to successfully evolve from one band to another and create some great music as opposed to recycling themes from old albums. I will give the tracks you've kindly recommended a listen, thanks! I really like "your silent face" and "age of consent" from PC&L.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

I think Depeche Mode have been better and more influential. New Orders best songs are as good as the best Depeche Mode songs, but Depeche Mode have far more good songs than New Order. Depeche Modes albums are also better than New Orders. From Black Celebration through to Songs of Faith and Devotion, they had a run of 4 albums which are stronger than any New Order album.

Sorry mate. Depeche Mode leave me totally cold and always did. I just saw them as a bland synth band with a bit of an attitude. I didn’t dislike them but the only one that ever moved me was that one about heroin addiction. Can’t remember the name. I don’t know where you’re from but it was the Americans that often liked the two bands back then, whereas in the UK it was rare for a New Order fans to like DM.

 

[bluefandk]

Dont care both shit.

 

[Nightmare Walking]

Sorry mate. Depeche Mode leave me totally cold and always did. I just saw them as a bland synth band with a bit of an attitude. I didn’t dislike them but the only one that ever moved me was that one about heroin addiction. Can’t remember the name. I don’t know where you’re from but it was the Americans that often liked the two bands back then, whereas in the UK it was rare for a New Order fans to like DM.

Well I am from that well known American state of Newton Heath :-D.

I hage always liked both and grew up with both. I much prefer New Orders electronic songs, in comparison to the more traditional rock based songs, hence probably why I like Depeche Mode.
Once you look past all the early Smash Hits covers and teeny bop stuff which blighted Depeche Modes early image in this country, from an electronic music point of view, they are far more pioneering and influential than New Order. What was going on under the bonnet, was far more interesting than the early candy floss image that they had. I perfectly understand New Order had a far cooler image than Depeche Mode, I took so much stick for it it at school.
I love both bands and follow both round Europe to this day. I just think when you assess the back catalogues of both bands, the Depeche Mode one has far more quality in it.

 

[trotsky]

 

[Nightmare Walking]

That's absolutely terrible. Nearly as bad as when Hooky got Rowetta to sing it.