Kamala Harris

[ChicagoBlue]

Fair enough. That's an answer I can take on board, even if it is still underplaying any real grievances the Trump-voters may have imho.

The problem with the message they’re receiving is that it is deceiving, both in its attempts to create unique grievances for them, and in the potential solution that one man can deliver them from it.

If they just realized that their grievances are not widely shared and constantly being worked on, but not yet realized for reasons they either choose to ignore or from which they are distracted, then they might see how they’re being manipulated.

Migrants raping, pillaging, eating their pets and taking their jobs, while also taking their hurricane relief monies??? REALLY?! All of it completely debunked hysteria, but it plays to grievance.

Switch grievance to understanding, and then understanding to concerted action, and you have a force that cannot be overshadowed by the deception and distraction. The question is, can Fox News and NewsMax SELL success or is FUD their only path anymore?

I applaud your confidence that what is happening won't have any long term effect on the union. I am just not so sure.

My “confidence” stems from the fact that the 60s and early 70s were far worse than this, yet America not only survived by thrived, and all based on a message of hope, hard work, and eventual success…which is essentially what the American Dream has always been.

If one listens to the closing messages of the two candidates, they’ve both veered RIGHT!

Trump’s has become more unhinged and authoritarian, as he alone can fix what ails us, while Harris has fully embraced Obama’s “Hope” AND Reagan’s “Morning in America” allusions, combining them into an anti-FUD message of “joy.”

Timing is working for Harris, but has not completely shown the results of so-called Bidenomics. If this election was in 6-12 months, and Congress had passed the Border Bill, this election would have been over long ago.

However, with inflation below historic averages, unemployment at record lows and GDP in the 3+% range, THESE ARE “the Good Old Days,” but some people at the very bottom refuse to believe it. Their car loans are at 10+% (ignore their horrible credit), their credit cards are at 25% (see above aside!) and their iPhone 16 Pro upgrade was too expensive…but look at my nails, my ride and my Gucci sweatsuit/$140 Carhartt jacket over my $40 Trump Rally t-shirt!!!

I understand the stock market is not Main Street, but for almost everyone except the very bottom of the economic ladder, America is back in business and business is booming! Too bad they’re constantly being told life is raining on their parade, because the LAST person that can fix that for them is Trump!

 

[halfcenturyup]

The problem with the message they’re receiving is that it is deceiving, both in its attempts to create unique grievances for them, and in the potential solution that one man can deliver them from it.

If they just realized that their grievances are not widely shared and constantly being worked on, but not yet realized for reasons they either choose to ignore or from which they are distracted, then they might see how they’re being manipulated.

Migrants raping, pillaging, eating their pets and taking their jobs, while also taking their hurricane relief monies??? REALLY?! All of it completely debunked hysteria, but it plays to grievance.

Switch grievance to understanding, and then understanding to concerted action, and you have a force that cannot be overshadowed by the deception and distraction. The question is, can Fox News and NewsMax SELL success or is FUD their only path anymore?



My “confidence” stems from the fact that the 60s and early 70s were far worse than this, yet America not only survived by thrived, and all based on a message of hope, hard work, and eventual success…which is essentially what the American Dream has always been.

If one listens to the closing messages of the two candidates, they’ve both veered RIGHT!

Trump’s has become more unhinged and authoritarian, as he alone can fix what ails us, while Harris has fully embraced Obama’s “Hope” AND Reagan’s “Morning in America” allusions, combining them into an anti-FUD message of “joy.”

Timing is working for Harris, but has not completely shown the results of so-called Bidenomics. If this election was in 6-12 months, and Congress had passed the Border Bill, this election would have been over long ago.

However, with inflation below historic averages, unemployment at record lows and GDP in the 3+% range, THESE ARE “the Good Old Days,” but some people at the very bottom refuse to believe it. Their car loans are at 10+% (ignore their horrible credit), their credit cards are at 25% (see above aside!) and their iPhone 16 Pro upgrade was too expensive…but look at my nails, my ride and my Gucci sweatsuit/$140 Carhartt jacket over my $40 Trump Rally t-shirt!!!

I understand the stock market is not Main Street, but for almost everyone except the very bottom of the economic ladder, America is back in business and business is booming! Too bad they’re constantly being told life is raining on their parade, because the LAST person that can fix that for them is Trump!

It's OK. I understand your position. It really doesn't matter if I agree with it or not as I have no say in who gets elected, but I worry as much about the longer-term effect of unanswered (in their minds, at least) grievances as much as the short-term threat that Trump represents.

 

[KS55]

Who the fuck are “they” and why do you get to absolve yourself and point fingers?

Look around the entire fucking world and tell me that MORE PEOPLE are trying to get INTO any other country than the USA.

Then, tell me WHY?!

I always love to read the “holier than thou” crowd telling me how righteous they are while openly deriding and dismissing the MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE in a country that helped them NOT have to speak German and kowtow to Berlin and that has protected them from the USSR/Russia for the last 4 generations.

Give it a fucking rest!

And, while you’re resting up thinking about your ignorance and recency bias, tell us all about this German Royal Family than runs the country, the self-appointed Ruling Classes that permeate every institution and run it for the Plebs and the absolute rape and pillage of the working classes that has been going on in the UK for centuries.

America is a big fucking melting pot of people from everywhere doing everything. A fascist is trying to corral the weak and feeble, whose victim mentality plays into his fascist, authoritarian hands…just like it did to his hero back in the 30’s when his Daddy was a fan, too! Then, take a look at the BIG MONEY that supports him and ask yourself the simplest of questions…Why?

I love the “debates” that go on here, but it is so fucking lazy, and ignorant, to watch and listen to fucking blowhards from overseas, who barely know what the fuck real life is like in America, telling America and Americans they’re fucked! (Lots of “fucks” for emphasis! ;-) )

The sun set on the British Empire almost a century ago and, while I understand the longing to hold onto whatever remnants one can of feeling like an important player on the world stage, one needs to come to terms that Europe hates you and the people you export to their shores (just bring your money and fuck off home), Brexit told them everything they needed to know about the growing victim mentality in the country, and you just have to face the truth that, without the “Special Relationship” Britain is rapidly turning into a third rate country with increasingly less sway, influence or respect in the world.

Conversely, The U.S. Constitution is one of the greatest documents ever conceived and the experiment it has created is one of the greatest achievements in the history of the world. Is it perfect? Absolutely not, and I have detailed my own issues with it.

However, to sit in Britain and talk of America as a failing or failed state is the height of hypocrisy, irony and lack of self-awareness.

There is an ongoing threat to America by a wealthy, self-styled, autocratic, failed real estate developer, licensee who has used the “money is speech” edict of a bought and paid for SCOTUS to create a clear and present danger to the country.

We are going to see how this plays out in the next few days, and possibly weeks and months, but let’s hope not years.

If it does imperil the country, we WILL find out how strong the institutions are, and whether this young nation has learned its lessons from the tyrannical British and the response that created the greatest, most forceful nation on earth.

Let’s hope we don’t have to test the people that way, but we might, and we are not necessarily certain of how it might go.

That said, these are small probabilities heaped on small probabilities, because the vast majority of those with wealth and power rely on the stability of the US economic and financial engine to secure their own foothold in the world. That will not be easily given up, even if it pits billionaires against billionaires and real Constitutionalists against a wannabe dictator.

But, looking around the US and Britain TODAY, I’ll take whatever bet you’re willing to make that the United States will be around, and thriving, long after the last throes of Empire are forgotten and the reality of “modern” Britain has sunk in for those not understanding the term “circling the drain of history.”

Give me the beautiful countryside, City, a good meat pie, a bag of Lion’s Wine Gums (and my siblings) and beyond that I’m struggling to see the allure. Maybe, you see a similar narrative over here, but you’d be missing the most important thing(s) about America if you did.

Only a fool would write off America.

Are you such a fool?

Wow, a fine rant. Just a couple of things: The German royal family do not run any country least of all the UK. The finest document ever produced is not the US constitution but the English Bill of Rights of 1689 from which the US Bill of Rights, the US Constitution, the UN Declaration of Universal Rights and the EU Human Rights Declaration are all derived, as well as several constitutions around the world.

 

[KS55]

I would agree that empires decline, but America has never been an empire, only a projection of strength with allied assistance. Military bases and lily pads have almost always been in “friendly” location, with a few notable exceptions, and the raison d’etre has not been to conquer and occupy, but rather to stop others from same.

Englands battles of the Middle Ages that helped create the Empire…and a long, much heralded Empire it was…became a burden England could not easily contain or maintain. America, on the other hand, has sought allies in the four corners of the globe from which friends can help protect friends.

Today, some might say the cost to maintain that reach and constrain potential enemies is too significant to continue to bear. Others might say it’s too significant NOT to bear.

We shall see which way the tension breaks. Let’s hope allied friendly democracies have the backbone for such difficult decisions.

“America has never been an Empire”
You have got to be joking. List the methods used to forge the USA and the people affected along the way. Ask a few native Americans for starters.

 

[Frank the Yank]

Who the fuck are “they” and why do you get to absolve yourself and point fingers?

Look around the entire fucking world and tell me that MORE PEOPLE are trying to get INTO any other country than the USA.

Then, tell me WHY?!

I always love to read the “holier than thou” crowd telling me how righteous they are while openly deriding and dismissing the MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE in a country that helped them NOT have to speak German and kowtow to Berlin and that has protected them from the USSR/Russia for the last 4 generations.

Give it a fucking rest!

And, while you’re resting up thinking about your ignorance and recency bias, tell us all about this German Royal Family than runs the country, the self-appointed Ruling Classes that permeate every institution and run it for the Plebs and the absolute rape and pillage of the working classes that has been going on in the UK for centuries.

America is a big fucking melting pot of people from everywhere doing everything. A fascist is trying to corral the weak and feeble, whose victim mentality plays into his fascist, authoritarian hands…just like it did to his hero back in the 30’s when his Daddy was a fan, too! Then, take a look at the BIG MONEY that supports him and ask yourself the simplest of questions…Why?

I love the “debates” that go on here, but it is so fucking lazy, and ignorant, to watch and listen to fucking blowhards from overseas, who barely know what the fuck real life is like in America, telling America and Americans they’re fucked! (Lots of “fucks” for emphasis! ;-) )

The sun set on the British Empire almost a century ago and, while I understand the longing to hold onto whatever remnants one can of feeling like an important player on the world stage, one needs to come to terms that Europe hates you and the people you export to their shores (just bring your money and fuck off home), Brexit told them everything they needed to know about the growing victim mentality in the country, and you just have to face the truth that, without the “Special Relationship” Britain is rapidly turning into a third rate country with increasingly less sway, influence or respect in the world.

Conversely, The U.S. Constitution is one of the greatest documents ever conceived and the experiment it has created is one of the greatest achievements in the history of the world. Is it perfect? Absolutely not, and I have detailed my own issues with it.

However, to sit in Britain and talk of America as a failing or failed state is the height of hypocrisy, irony and lack of self-awareness.

There is an ongoing threat to America by a wealthy, self-styled, autocratic, failed real estate developer, licensee who has used the “money is speech” edict of a bought and paid for SCOTUS to create a clear and present danger to the country.

We are going to see how this plays out in the next few days, and possibly weeks and months, but let’s hope not years.

If it does imperil the country, we WILL find out how strong the institutions are, and whether this young nation has learned its lessons from the tyrannical British and the response that created the greatest, most forceful nation on earth.

Let’s hope we don’t have to test the people that way, but we might, and we are not necessarily certain of how it might go.

That said, these are small probabilities heaped on small probabilities, because the vast majority of those with wealth and power rely on the stability of the US economic and financial engine to secure their own foothold in the world. That will not be easily given up, even if it pits billionaires against billionaires and real Constitutionalists against a wannabe dictator.

But, looking around the US and Britain TODAY, I’ll take whatever bet you’re willing to make that the United States will be around, and thriving, long after the last throes of Empire are forgotten and the reality of “modern” Britain has sunk in for those not understanding the term “circling the drain of history.”

Give me the beautiful countryside, City, a good meat pie, a bag of Lion’s Wine Gums (and my siblings) and beyond that I’m struggling to see the allure. Maybe, you see a similar narrative over here, but you’d be missing the most important thing(s) about America if you did.

Only a fool would write off America.

Are you such a fool?

Here here!! Meyhinks you doth waste your breath. Elections have consequences. Our institutions are strong enough to hold up to the storm…

 

[Frank the Yank]

Nope. Chilling in my bed in Milan wondering when to get up and have some breakfast.

The people will decide and it will tell us who we are at the moment. I’ve spent my entire adult life trying to insulate myself from the negative effects of the political pendulum, and have pretty much succeeded, but I do have a couple of 20-something’s who have yet to do so, so I don’t want to waste 4 yrs watching a performative clown harming the country unnecessarily.

I’ve made my viewpoints on the Harris-Trump decision perfectly clear.

Now, I’ve also made my thoughts clear on your half-baked assertion that the US is somehow going to dissolve away its preeminence on the world stage because uneducated, easily swayed, mostly rural, Fox News watchers think Trump is some kind of savior, when any sentient mirror fogged can see he is a horrible con man, from his business “acumen” to his statesmanship to his strong man facade to his increasingly darker brown shoe polish face paint!

In a perfect world, neither candidate would probably lead their party, but in the imperfect world in which we live, there is one clear and obvious choice. I made my decision and cast my vote weeks ago, but my vote isn’t that important (I don’t think) because if Deep Blue Illinois goes Red, it’s all over before the sunsets on the 5th!

My question of you remains, though.

At that, I’m thinking some avocado toast and an omelette with some fruit and a latte & espresso shot, or two, followed by a nice walk around town in the fresh air, maybe even over to the Duomo, to help me cross the Atlantic this afternoon. You?

You have time to do that? I thought those flight back to the USA leave in the morning?

Never do international myself as I hate working nights and don’t want to deal with the jet lag. Having said that I have a trip ( downtown layover) in Mexico City skated for. On day but back Tuesday ago for the fun and games..

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Wow, a fine rant. Just a couple of things: The German royal family do not run any country least of all the UK. The finest document ever produced is not the US constitution but the English Bill of Rights of 1689 from which the US Bill of Rights, the US Constitution, the UN Declaration of Universal Rights and the EU Human Rights Declaration are all derived, as well as several constitutions around the world.

Sadly, your “freedoms” seem to be getting eroded with every camera and every prosecution for saying certain words.

And, I’ll raise you a Magna Carta!

 

[ChicagoBlue]

“America has never been an Empire”
You have got to be joking. List the methods used to forge the USA and the people affected along the way. Ask a few native Americans for starters.

No, not joking. By that metric, every country on earth was created by empire. How far back should we go to create the starting point?

 

[KS55]

@Dax777, this is just for you. I don’t know quite why I’m bothering with this particularly boring bit of jurisprudence, perhaps I am hoping that you break the habit of a lifetime and accept you were wrong in your insistence that J6 was not an insurrection. My response is not particularly polished but I can’t be bothered to add lustre.
Your statement was ‘J6 was NOT an insurrection. It was a protest.’
INSURRECTION
An insurrection is an act or series of acts committed by an ORGANISED group with the PURPOSE of usurping the legitimate government or preventing it from taking office. An insurrection has various CHARACTERISTICS which are: the acts are illegal or unconstitutional, they are usually extra parliamentary, and they always include violence.
J6
Was there an organised group?
Two days after Biden won the 2020 election, lawyers acting for Trump hired a series of rooms at the Willard hotel in Washington to provide a place in which to plan the insurrection. Several high ranking Trump advisors attended meetings including Guiliani and John Eastman. Leaders of several militia such as the Proud Boys also attended meetings.
At the same time various meetings took place in several states and the plan to subvert the Electoral College by creating false certification documents was hatched.
The purpose of these documents was to replace the EC’s vote for Biden. with a vote declaring Trump the winner.
In the run up to J6 Trump attempted to persuade VP PENCE that he had the power to replace the genuine EC votes or to refer the vote
back to the states. So J6 was put together by an organised group.
METHODS.
The methods used included forgery, false declarations by the replacement EC voters, and the unconstitutional attempt to refer the vote back to the states.
Pence consulted the most prominent conservative Jurist, Judge Michael Luttig who advised that the VP had no power under the constitution to do anything other than tot up the EC Certificates and declare the result. So the methods used were illegal and unconstitutional.
J6 Violence.
The violence on J6 was not extempore but carefully planned at the Willard. The various militia groups were on the Ellipse specifically for that purpose as was Trump. He enjoined them to “Fight like hell or you won’t have a country” and to “Stop the Steal”. That is, their purpose was to prevent the legitimate government from taking office and replace it with Republican usurpers.
Failure.
Why did the insurrection fail?
First, the organisation of the false certificates was erratic. One state group forged the documents and then posted them in the US Mail.
The false certificates never reached the hands of the VP.
Second, Pence was persuaded by Luttig that he did not have the power to modify the EC vote in any way and he refused to do so.
Conclusion.
It is clear that this was an organised attempt to usurp to legitimate government using illegal, unconstitutional acts and violence. A classic insurrection.
Was it a protest?
A protest does not have the objective of usurping the government but rather attempts to persuade the gov to change policy. It is perfectly acceptable as a democratic action, though any associated violence is not.
It is clear that those who took part in J6 were not attempting to change any government policy. So it was not a protest.

So, I contend that J6 was an insurrection and that Dax is flat wrong.
Over to you @Dax777 .

 

[ChicagoBlue]

You have time to do that? I thought those flight back to the USA leave in the morning?

Never do international myself as I hate working nights and don’t want to deal with the jet lag. Having said that I have a trip ( downtown layover) in Mexico City skated for. On day but back Tuesday ago for the fun and games..

Milan is a 10:30pm ORD dept, so we don’t get to the hotel until 2:30pm local. Few hours kip, bite, sleep, breakfast and leave at 12:30 for MXP. 3pm departure arriving 7pm ORD!

It’s a funny one. Takeoff in pitch dark, arrive 2 hours after sunset, with the Sun chasing us home…and winning! Good thing is, you’re ready for bed when you get home, and zero residual jet lag on Sat morning for the football!