Keir Starmer

[Ban-jani]

Is my semi-Jewish heritage not good enough for ya? Huh!? ;)

You’re always good enough for me :-)

 

[Vic]

Can someone explain to me, without any sarcastic comments as this is a sincere question, why Israel comes up so frequently in relation to the labour party? Why does it cloud every discussion and why is Israel and Palestine's affairs such a key talking point?

Sorry if this is genuine naivety on my behalf. It often feels like lots of labour voters talk about that more than they do about current affairs that affect those in the UK. I don't quite understand why.

Edit - I'm not saying those world issues aren't important, just unsure as to why they're seemingly so high on the agenda given everything

It is a very good question. Why this (and not all the other conflicts / human rights abuses)? A lot of these other conflicts are tribal or racial but often proxy for other international rivalries. There are not many which derive from a people being dispossessed of their lands and property by the modern creation of a new state - and from a British point of view it's part of our legacy that we didn't allow an Arab state but did promote a homeland for the Jews (not necessarily in the Holy Land) - and well before the Holocaust added a dreadful new imperative. Arguing now about which group first threatened to throw the other into the sea, or what would have happened if Israel's neighbours hadn't gone to war against the new state, or if terrorism (against Britain) had not been part of the foundation of Israel, doesn't much help (but it's as well to know about these things).

My grandfather's building firm built at least one synagogue in Manchester and there's always been a bit of family pride in that (he was a Baptist), and the history of the Jews in Britain has been more about poor people than rich bankers (for where Labour sympathies historically lie see Cable Street); the first peacetime legislation against immigration to Britain was clearly aimed at keeping out impoverished Jews from Eastern Europe (they would dilute wages of course) and none of us can know we are entirely free of anti-Semitism - but the only time I've known the issue crop up as a major issue while campaigning for Labour (in a town with very few practising Jews) was when a voter we were amicably chatting to (in 2015) suddenly said he couldn't vote for a party with a Jewish leader, whereon our candidate said "I don't want your vote" and walked off.

But you know there are other factors in play when Terry Waite (held hostage for years by opponents of Israel) voiced on a radio programme (many years ago) some mild criticism of Israeli policy and was immediately accused by another interviewee of anti-Semitism. I'm sure most Labour voters do not talk about this a lot, and I don't think most party members talk about it more than more local issues - and the only time I've heard anything in a party meeting that sounded a bit anti-Semitic the guy making it soon knew it was unacceptable. Maybe it's different in Islington.

Shalom.

 

[twosips]

You might also wait for a politically-left view on what happened. It might match in part, but may offer different ideology.

Yeah happy to hear any views. Only asking out of curiosity. Not to judge.

 

[Tb1981]

What was your opinion on the Blair government?

General Positive aside from foreign policy

 

[Magicpole]

I predicted three years ago what has unravelled. Corbyn would be destroyed in a systematic smear campaign. Labour would then appoint a leader that would go right wing to try and win over England. So far, Sir Compliant Starmer of Establishment, is dancing wonderfully to its tune.

They are dead here, but in England this could lead to a Red Tory Government. I doubt it, let's face it, if large sections of the working class vote for Boris, it seems mental imploding has reached a new low.

I have more chance of being the next PM than that MI5 plant ****.

 

[Rascal]

Can someone explain to me, without any sarcastic comments as this is a sincere question, why Israel comes up so frequently in relation to the labour party? Why does it cloud every discussion and why is Israel and Palestine's affairs such a key talking point?

Sorry if this is genuine naivety on my behalf. It often feels like lots of labour voters talk about that more than they do about current affairs that affect those in the UK. I don't quite understand why.

Edit - I'm not saying those world issues aren't important, just unsure as to why they're seemingly so high on the agenda given everything

I have the read the other replies to your post with a mix of bemusement.

As a former Labour party member and supporter all my life I have never discussed Israel or Palestine with my friends, it is rarely if ever discussed at CLP meetings, but according to the replies you have received the Labour party is obsessed about it. The media are obsessed about it as its a big stick to beat Labour with because Labour and those on the left in general are anti-imperialist, Lenin saw Imperialism as the ultimate act of capitalism.

There is also a feeling maybe of post colonial guilt, Britain was instrumental in setting up the Isreali state through the Balfour agreement. I don't know more than that to be honest so I wont go there. There was a time on here where people far more educated than myself would have been able to explain it you, but to be honest its never been a topic I have had a particular interest in or knowledge of. Skashion who used to post here was brilliant on the subject, him and PB had some epic discussions over the issue, I wasn't involved though as I didn't know anywhere near enough to get involved.

What I would say to you though, is take a lot of the replies to you with a pinch of salt and educate yourself on it.

 

[Rascal]

The likes of Chomsky on the left .

Fucking hell. He is an Anarchist, possibly anarcho-syndicalist. Look up Mondragon.

 

[Rascal]

What is it that normal people want, that us idiotic "hard" left "numpties" don't get?

There is already a Conservative party, a party of the right, a party of the free market, a party of individualism.

Explain to me what a party of the left should look like, what policies you would like to see a party of the Left have in a manifesto.

Here are 20 primers, can any on here tell me what is wrong with the following and why it should be different, what alternative would better suit the nation.

1/ The NHS should be funded properly, nurses should be paid a proper wage.
2/ The welfare state should be a treasured institution, that provides a proper safety net for those who come across hard times and it should support those unable to support themselves
3/ Everybody who can work, should work
4/ Everybody should pay there fair share of taxation
5/ Infrastructure, like the railways should be in public ownership, its a vital national asset and should be treated accordingly
6/ The armed forces should be properly funded and the services restored to former numbers, with British built ships, British built tanks etc
7/ The police force should be restored to the numbers pre 2008, law and order is the bedrock of a decent society
8/ Immigration should be controlled, asylum seekers should be welcome as per international agreements
9/ Children should receive the best education possible, it should be free and if they want to go on to further education then they should be encouraged to do so and it should be free. Education closes the inequality gap and provides the skills that an economy needs
10/ Nobody should ever be homeless in a rich modern country, Build a million new council houses, with rents at affordable rates and tenancy agreements available for life
11/ Start a new National Investment Bank, that is available for SMEs so that they can provide jobs and help the economy prosper
12/ Invest in green technology, its the future, we no longer rely on coal
13/ Close tax loopholes that allow those with wealth to move wealth out of the country
14/ Electricity and Gas provision is vital for the nation to prosper, it should be owned by the people who need it and paid for it. The public.
15/ No library should ever be shut, they are vital institutions that help educate the nation.
16/ Trial by jury should be sacrosanct
17/ Prisons should be a place that offers rehabilitation, but also punishes those who commit heinious crime. Prison officer numbers should be restored to former numbers
18/ Local Government should have power to act on local issues, the grants should be restored so that local government cam meet the needs of local people
19/ Broadband/wifi should be available to everyone and every child should be given a tablet/laptop on starting school to help educate them properly. Education will help close the productivity gap
20/ Unions should be restored to prominence, they are responsible for so many things we take for granted today and collective bargaining helps ensure wages are paid at a proper level.


OK, there is 20 things that this "hard" left "numpty" would like to see for our country, I believe those 20 things would help restore pride in our country, enhance the patriotic feelings towards our nation, because patriotism is about loving the country you live in. It would enhance the role of family and reduce inequality.

Now who will deconstruct those 20 points and explain to this "hard" left "numpty" where I am going wrong?

ANYBODY?

This is a thread about Labour and the leadership, but once again its been derailed by AS

Can any of you explain why the above will make you worse off and make the UK a place you don't want your children to grow up in?

ANYBODY

 

[Ban-jani]

Fucking hell. He is an Anarchist, possibly anarcho-syndicalist. Look up Mondragon.

His views on inequality never boil over into conspiracies is my point.

 

[Ban-jani]

ANYBODY?

This is a thread about Labour and the leadership, but once again its been derailed by AS

Can any of you explain why the above will make you worse off and make the UK a place you don't want your children to grow up in?

ANYBODY

What page was it on?

I can’t find it and I’ll give you an honest response to each specific point.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

ANYBODY?

This is a thread about Labour and the leadership, but once again its been derailed by AS

Can any of you explain why the above will make you worse off and make the UK a place you don't want your children to grow up in?

ANYBODY

I agree with all of that, but it's financially liberal and socially conservative. Today we are being sold the idea of a 'left' that is the other way round - socially liberal but fiscally conservative. That's what I see anyway.

 

[Ban-jani]

I have the read the other replies to your post with a mix of bemusement.

As a former Labour party member and supporter all my life I have never discussed Israel or Palestine with my friends, it is rarely if ever discussed at CLP meetings, but according to the replies you have received the Labour party is obsessed about it. The media are obsessed about it as its a big stick to beat Labour with because Labour and those on the left in general are anti-imperialist, Lenin saw Imperialism as the ultimate act of capitalism.

There is also a feeling maybe of post colonial guilt, Britain was instrumental in setting up the Isreali state through the Balfour agreement. I don't know more than that to be honest so I wont go there. There was a time on here where people far more educated than myself would have been able to explain it you, but to be honest its never been a topic I have had a particular interest in or knowledge of. Skashion who used to post here was brilliant on the subject, him and PB had some epic discussions over the issue, I wasn't involved though as I didn't know anywhere near enough to get involved.

What I would say to you though, is take a lot of the replies to you with a pinch of salt and educate yourself on it.

You haven’t really offered anything other than “me and my close mates in Labour didn’t care about it” as an argument.

I’ve no doubt you’re not a racist, no doubt at all but that’s not to say those outside of your circle of associates in the party aren’t.

Whats with the mass flying of Palestinian flags at conference?

 

[Ban-jani]

I agree with all of that, but it's financially liberal and socially conservative. Today we are being sold the idea of a 'left' that is the other way round - socially liberal but fiscally conservative. That's what I see anyway.

The UK is about as socially conservative as a gay immigrant orgy with cocaine on offer.

Johnson is a liberal.

 

[Rascal]

Because they are idiots that hold the Labour party back, vast majority of the country aren't interested in what happens with Israel and Palestine but these numptys cannot help themselves.

If Israel wasn't a Jewish country and was say ruled by Muslims I wonder how much they would care. They always seem to hate the UK just as much as they hate Israel too.

And you accuse the Labour party of AS by using AS as a weapon to try and a make an idiotic point. Do you not see the irony in your post

I don't hate this country nor do I hate Israel, i am no anti semite and I am no racist, but you appear to want to go all out and throw accusations of racism about whilst using racist tropes yourself.

Peake's idiotic attempt to connect George Floyd's murder to 'Israel Secret Service' tactics, indicating that Israel was in some way responsible and therefore is a reprehensible community, is a prime example of this tone deaf attitude that has surfaced about "Jews being responsible for every national social tragedy in history". RLB supporting the article, and thus the comments and then failing to apologise after being called out on it, is an example of an attitude that has plagued recent Labour MP's.
S.

Do you realise the Jewish Post a newspaper based in Israel is saying that it is true that the Isreali Defence Force have trained US police forces. Its not a trope, its a fucking fact,

 

[Rascal]

You haven’t really offered anything other than “me and my close mates in Labour didn’t care about it” as an argument.

I’ve no doubt you’re not a racist, no doubt at all but that’s not to say those outside of your circle of associates in the party aren’t.

Whats with the mass flying of Palestinian flags at conference?

The party passed a motion to recognise the state of Palestine.

Is that a problem?

 

[Metal Biker]

And you accuse the Labour party of AS by using AS as a weapon to try and a make an idiotic point. Do you not see the irony in your post

I don't hate this country nor do I hate Israel, i am no anti semite and I am no racist, but you appear to want to go all out and throw accusations of racism about whilst using racist tropes yourself.




Do you realise the Jewish Post a newspaper based in Israel is saying that it is true that the Isreali Defence Force have trained US police forces. Its not a trope, its a fucking fact,

You do realise that that isn't the point about it being seen as antisemitic?

It's the trope that once again, the situation in the US is in someway connected back to Israel. For what purpose. And yes, the have trained with them. There is however no evidence that the Israeli Defence Force taught them to kneel on black people's necks in order to murder them, which was the insinuation being made.

 

[Scottyboi]

And you accuse the Labour party of AS by using AS as a weapon to try and a make an idiotic point. Do you not see the irony in your post

I don't hate this country nor do I hate Israel, i am no anti semite and I am no racist, but you appear to want to go all out and throw accusations of racism about whilst using racist tropes yourself.




Do you realise the Jewish Post a newspaper based in Israel is saying that it is true that the Isreali Defence Force have trained US police forces. Its not a trope, its a fucking fact,

Very defensive lmao where did I name you Rascal?

And regarding the part I have just put in bold, Peake had no reason to link Israel and Floyd regardless of American police having training by them, I am sure they use many organisations to find new techniques. She only made that point to have a dig at Israel and RLB is a tit for retweeting it after Labours past few years of AS.

 

[Metal Biker]

The party passed a motion to recognise the state of Palestine.

Is that a problem?

When it's aligned with terror groups of said state of Palestine that refuses to acknowledge the state of Israel and its right to exist?

Yeah, it does become a bit of an issue.

 

[Rascal]

I agree with all of that, but it's financially liberal and socially conservative. Today we are being sold the idea of a 'left' that is the other way round - socially liberal but fiscally conservative. That's what I see anyway.

That is the where the liberal lefty stuff comes from. People see the Labour party as socially liberal, I am not a liberal, never have been. I am far more authoritarian and the Labour always used to have a strain of patriotic small C conservatism about it because to put it simply, its the working class traditional labour voters that did most of the dying for the country.

 

[Vic]

Because they are idiots that hold the Labour party back, vast majority of the country aren't interested in what happens with Israel and Palestine but these numptys cannot help themselves.

If Israel wasn't a Jewish country and was say ruled by Muslims I wonder how much they would care. They always seem to hate the UK just as much as they hate Israel too.

An interesting bit of ifaboutery!

This may seem equally distant from the current stuff, but anti-Semitism is not an invention of the left. Try the right wing press: "German Jews pouring in" was typical Daily Mail http://heindehaas.blogspot.com/2015/05/