Keir Starmer

[The perfect fumble]

Was that his wrestling name?

 

[Shaelumstash]

Fair enough.

So why did he come so close in 2017?

I'm sure there were lots of reasons mate.

The referendum had only just happened and I think a lot of Remainers in the 2017 GE saw a vote for Corbyn as the only possible way to stop Brexit.

They were right too, the hung Parliament definitely had a huge impact in May not getting a deal over the line.

May ran a diabolical campaign, she came across as wooden and robotic and cold. Whereas Corbyn, to his credit, is actually pretty effective when rallying a crowd and speaking from the gut.

There was a lot youth culture support for Corbyn, Grime for Corbyn, the appearance at Glasto etc. Of course those things might not have had a huge direct impact at the ballot box, but it helped create the impression that he was the more in-touch, less stuffy, anti-authoritarian candidate, which a lot of people were crying out for.

Fast forward to 2019 and people had seen how inept was in PMQ's for so long, people were wising up to him.

His manifesto alienated a lot of moderates who were concerned about the economy. Add in Boris who was more engaging and if anything seemed even more of a maverick, anti-establishment character to Corbyn.

Add-in the fact we'd had 3 years of deadlock on Brexit, it was consuming everyone's day-to-day life, people were fed up with the indecision. Labour and Corbyn had absolutely no clear message for what they were going to do, a vote for Labour was a vote for more indecision and procrastination.

The tragedy is, if Starmer was Labour leader in 2019 and campaigned on a Remain ticket and a moderate economic and social plan, I think he could have won.

For Labour to win, they'd need to scoop up those M4 corridor votes, which were overwhelmingly Remain. But they were never in a million years going to vote for Corbyn.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

When you say I lost the election and I didn't understand the electorate, I think you're assuming I voted for Corbyn? I didn't.

It was blatantly obvious that the Tories were going to win the election. People like Boris' personality, they wanted an end to uncertainty and they saw Corbyn as a bigger threat to the economy than Leave.

But don't make the mistake of assuming the GE was some kind of 2nd referendum on Brexit. There were lots more nuances at play, Corbyn being the major one. I'm a Remainer and have never voted Tory in my life, but I couldn't vote for Corbyn.

You see, if you bought the £350m line, then I'm afraid you fall neatly in to the box of people that fell for Dominic Cummings manipulation.

The UK has never written a cheque for £350m and sent it to the EU. Or had it set up as a rolling monthly payment or anything even similar to that.

The net economic benefit of EU membership was £62bn-£78bn per year. So even after the £350m a week is accounted for, we benefited to the tune of tens of billions of pounds on top of that.

People who roll out the £350m a week line simply don't understand the economics. They've been manipulated. I don't blame them, it's not their fault. It's Ferage and Cummings etc who I blame for lying and misleading people.

Hopefully they will eventually go to jail and apologise to you guys.

Lol, you've gone down the route of the rest of the bitter remainers and assumed this bus was
the reason the country voted to leave, it was just another marketing ploy amongst a blizzard of others.
The assumption, since that loss, has continued to focus on this one event, and is a comfort blanket
that covers the unpalatable fact, that people of the UK wanted to exit the EU.
Anyway, we digress, we're out, and staying out.

 

[Shaelumstash]

Lol, you've gone down the route of the rest of the bitter remainers and assumed this bus was
the reason the country voted to leave, it was just another marketing ploy amongst a blizzard of others.
The assumption, since that loss, has continued to focus on this one event, and is a comfort blanket
that covers the unpalatable fact, that people of the UK wanted to exit the EU.
Anyway, we digress, we're out, and staying out.

The bus is not a comfort blanket.

I’ve listed at least half a dozen reasons why people voted leave.

You said yourself, the £350m a week was one of the reasons for you.

But economically it’s incorrect. You were lied to. Manipulated. Hoodwinked. (Or you have other reasons for wanting to leave but don’t want to come across as bigoted or thick and roll out the £350m line to try to justify your decision).

You’re right, we’re out. The idiots have won the day. Just like the idiots who elected Trump. Strange, sad times. But the goodies usually win in the end.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

The bus is not a comfort blanket.

I’ve listed at least half a dozen reasons why people voted leave.

You said yourself, the £350m a week was one of the reasons for you.

But economically it’s incorrect. You were lied to. Manipulated. Hoodwinked. (Or you have other reasons for wanting to leave but don’t want to come across as bigoted or thick and roll out the £350m line to try to justify your decision).

You’re right, we’re out. The idiots have won the day. Just like the idiots who elected Trump. Strange, sad times. But the goodies usually win in the end.

You might actually be correct in everything you say here. But do you not realise that by characterising remainers as idiots who have been manipulated /hoodwinked/bigoted/thick etc. it tends to polarise the debate and make them dig their heels in and be less receptive to your valid points? I'll risk being rude to you now (for which I apologise in advance), but this is a blind arrogance that constitutes a form of stupidity in itself, characterised by failure to counter the leave narrative which is as full of holes as you suggest. I put it to you then that your sort of narrative is even more stupid than the side of a bus bigotry and has directly led to the success of leave - stupid begets stupid, and you reap as you sow.

 

[blueinsa]

You might actually be correct in everything you say here. But do you not realise that by characterising remainers as idiots who have been manipulated /hoodwinked/bigoted/thick etc. it tends to polarise the debate and make them dig their heels in and be less receptive to your valid points? I'll risk being rude to you now (for which I apologise in advance), but this is a blind arrogance that constitutes a form of stupidity in itself, characterised by failure to counter the leave narrative which is as full of holes as you suggest. I put it to you then that your sort of narrative is even more stupid than the side of a bus bigotry and has directly led to the success of leave - stupid begets stupid, and you reap as you sow.

Every single thread on this particular forum is the exact same thing.

Agree with me or you are a thick racist/nazi/xenophobe/Tory/twat/****/wanker/prick/idiot..........

Defend yourself and your opinion and the frothing at the mouth goes to a whole new level!

As big a waste of internet bandwidth as you will see this place right now.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Every single thread on this particular forum is the exact same thing.

Agree with me or you are a thick racist/nazi/xenophobe/Tory/twat/****/wanker/prick/idiot..........

Defend yourself and your opinion and the frothing at the mouth goes to a whole new level!

As big a waste of internet bandwidth as you will see this place right now.

I think its an internet thing. Everything reduced to a soundbite or slogan, and everyone either on the attack or offended.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

The bus is not a comfort blanket.

I’ve listed at least half a dozen reasons why people voted leave.

You said yourself, the £350m a week was one of the reasons for you.

But economically it’s incorrect. You were lied to. Manipulated. Hoodwinked. (Or you have other reasons for wanting to leave but don’t want to come across as bigoted or thick and roll out the £350m line to try to justify your decision).

You’re right, we’re out. The idiots have won the day. Just like the idiots who elected Trump. Strange, sad times. But the goodies usually win in the end.

I said £350 mill was one of the reasons? No I didn't, I said it was a proposition, which it was, the only
ones who obsessed about it were those who repeated it incessantly after their loss. You're implying
that we all voted out because of it, as if it was some tipping point, which is bollocks, the reasons for leaving
were there well before any campaign, there wan't any 'Oh look at that bus, that's clinched it' moments.
Did you believe your job was going down the Swanee, did you believe your tax would increase by 10%
or that we could be at war, so it's best if I vote to remain, you know all that sort of crap?
Probably not, as these are scaremongering tactics, the bus was an aspect of that.
I know it's incorrect, you knew the above was, nobody was hoodwinked, they simply don't agree with you, which is infuriating, but you have to accept these things in life.
Oh, and calling everyone idiots because they don't like your political viewpoints is a common theme,
and it ensures the caller's viewpoint becomes irrelevant.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

You might actually be correct in everything you say here. But do you not realise that by characterising remainers as idiots who have been manipulated /hoodwinked/bigoted/thick etc. it tends to polarise the debate and make them dig their heels in and be less receptive to your valid points? I'll risk being rude to you now (for which I apologise in advance), but this is a blind arrogance that constitutes a form of stupidity in itself, characterised by failure to counter the leave narrative which is as full of holes as you suggest. I put it to you then that your sort of narrative is even more stupid than the side of a bus bigotry and has directly led to the success of leave - stupid begets stupid, and you reap as you sow.

Amen.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

Every single thread on this particular forum is the exact same thing.

Agree with me or you are a thick racist/nazi/xenophobe/Tory/twat/****/wanker/prick/idiot..........

Defend yourself and your opinion and the frothing at the mouth goes to a whole new level!

As big a waste of internet bandwidth as you will see this place right now.

I think this was the label that was thrown most at people who voted to leave whether or not they they believed they had sound economic or political reasons for voting leave. I think it shows that we live in a time where a democratic vote is only legitimate if you voted the 'right' way. I suppose that the Leavers would have called the Remainers idiots had the vote gone the other way!

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I think this was the label that was thrown most at people who voted to leave whether or not they they believed they had sound economic or political reasons for voting leave. I think it shows that we live in a time where a democratic vote is only legitimate if you voted the 'right' way. I suppose that the Leavers would have called the Remainers idiots had the vote gone the other way!

True, and what tickles me about the idiot tag, is the uncomfortable fact that whilst many Labour voters
hated Corbyn and voted for Boris, those that did vote for Jezza are apparently, not idiots according to
the idiot mongers.

 

[Shaelumstash]

I said £350 mill was one of the reasons? No I didn't, I said it was a proposition, which it was, the only
ones who obsessed about it were those who repeated it incessantly after their loss. You're implying
that we all voted out because of it, as if it was some tipping point, which is bollocks, the reasons for leaving
were there well before any campaign, there wan't any 'Oh look at that bus, that's clinched it' moments.
Did you believe your job was going down the Swanee, did you believe your tax would increase by 10%
or that we could be at war, so it's best if I vote to remain, you know all that sort of crap?
Probably not, as these are scaremongering tactics, the bus was an aspect of that.
I know it's incorrect, you knew the above was, nobody was hoodwinked, they simply don't agree with you, which is infuriating, but you have to accept these things in life.
Oh, and calling everyone idiots because they don't like your political viewpoints is a common theme,
and it ensures the caller's viewpoint becomes irrelevant.

I don't think people that don't agree with me are idiots.

But people who think we'll be better off economically being out of the EU are idiots.

And people who think immigration from non-EU countries will go down because of Brexit are idiots.

People were angry, they had grievances, many of them completely understandable.

The thing I'm angry about, is that the Leave campaign exploited those anger and grievances and manipulated people in to thinking they would all be solved by leaving the EU. They won't.

 

[Shaelumstash]

You might actually be correct in everything you say here. But do you not realise that by characterising remainers as idiots who have been manipulated /hoodwinked/bigoted/thick etc. it tends to polarise the debate and make them dig their heels in and be less receptive to your valid points? I'll risk being rude to you now (for which I apologise in advance), but this is a blind arrogance that constitutes a form of stupidity in itself, characterised by failure to counter the leave narrative which is as full of holes as you suggest. I put it to you then that your sort of narrative is even more stupid than the side of a bus bigotry and has directly led to the success of leave - stupid begets stupid, and you reap as you sow.

I'm not angry at the people who voted Leave.

I understand a lot of people had a huge amount of grievances, and many of them are completely legitimate.

I'm angry that the Leave campaign deliberately exploited those fears, angers and grievances and promoted the idea that leaving the EU would solve all of those problems.

You don't need to apologise, I've been called a lot worse ;-)

But I'll knock it back to you and say, that Leavers constantly just press the cliché button and say "Oh, it's because of these kind of attitudes why people voted Leave" but they never offer their actual reasons for voting Leave.

Surely they've not voted Leave out of spite because Remainers are "arrogant"? There must be legitimate fears, anger, concerns etc behind it?

Again, I'm not saying people were hoodwinked in having those fears, angers or concerns. I'm saying they were hoodwinked in to thinking those things would be solved by leaving the EU.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

I don't think people that don't agree with me are idiots.

But people who think we'll be better off economically being out of the EU are idiots.

And people who think immigration from non-EU countries will go down because of Brexit are idiots.

People were angry, they had grievances, many of them completely understandable.

The thing I'm angry about, is that the Leave campaign exploited those anger and grievances and manipulated people in to thinking they would all be solved by leaving the EU. They won't.

Save your anger for the remain campaign that wasted its time taking the piss out of leavers, calling them idiots, and arrogantly assuming the benefits of EU membership were obvious instead of articulating its case more effectively. Also, a failure to understand that people want to be in Europe / European - just not in the EU.

 

[mexico1970]

I'm not angry at the people who voted Leave.

I understand a lot of people had a huge amount of grievances, and many of them are completely legitimate.

I'm angry that the Leave campaign deliberately exploited those fears, angers and grievances and promoted the idea that leaving the EU would solve all of those problems.

You don't need to apologise, I've been called a lot worse ;-)

But I'll knock it back to you and say, that Leavers constantly just press the cliché button and say "Oh, it's because of these kind of attitudes why people voted Leave" but they never offer their actual reasons for voting Leave.

Surely they've not voted Leave out of spite because Remainers are "arrogant"? There must be legitimate fears, anger, concerns etc behind it?

Again, I'm not saying people were hoodwinked in having those fears, angers or concerns. I'm saying they were hoodwinked in to thinking those things would be solved by leaving the EU.

The EU has become much more than a trading bloc and that was the big question leading up to the vote, fears of an EU military and creeping federalisation were major factors in the minds of the voting public.

I voted to remain but by the end of the process I would have voted to leave if we would have been forced to take another vote, the way that politicians and the media in general portrayed leave voters was nothing short of disgraceful.

 

[Shaelumstash]

Save your anger for the remain campaign that wasted its time taking the piss out of leavers, calling them idiots, and arrogantly assuming the benefits of EU membership were obvious instead of articulating its case more effectively. Also, a failure to understand that people want to be in Europe / European - just not in the EU.

Unfortunately, the Remain campaign went for facts and truth.

It didn't cut through, and the bombast, hyperbole, bullshit and bigotry of the Leave campaign gained far more traction on social media (as it so often does, unfortunately).

I agree the Remain side ran a poor campaign, but they were constantly putting out fires of bullshit the Leave campaign were saying.

It's actually a flaw of the current democratic process that political campaigns can spread disinformation at such an exponential rate on social media and face no legal repercussions.

Hopefully the law catches up and some of these bastards can be held to account.

 

[blueinsa]

Unfortunately, the Remain campaign went for facts and truth.

It didn't cut through, and the bombast, hyperbole, bullshit and bigotry of the Leave campaign gained far more traction on social media (as it so often does, unfortunately).

I agree the Remain side ran a poor campaign, but they were constantly putting out fires of bullshit the Leave campaign were saying.

It's actually a flaw of the current democratic process that political campaigns can spread disinformation at such an exponential rate on social media and face no legal repercussions.

Hopefully the law catches up and some of these bastards can be held to account.

.....the next bus has just turned up.

 

[Metal Biker]

Unfortunately, the Remain campaign went for facts and truth.

Remain campaign ALSO went for hyperbole and shaming those who considered a vote to leave as being motivated by racism and xenophobia. That was it's core message and the majority of the voters rejected it.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Remain campaign ALSO went for hyperbole and shaming those who considered a vote to leave as being motivated by racism and xenophobia. That was it's core message and the majority of the voters rejected it.

It wasn't a core message of remain, leave said it was because it suited their purpose, and it stuck.

 

[Shaelumstash]

Remain campaign ALSO went for hyperbole and shaming those who considered a vote to leave as being motivated by racism and xenophobia. That was it's core message and the majority of the voters rejected it.

Haha!