Keir Starmer

[hilts]

It does matter though.

As it dictated how generation upon generation views what is considered extreme or not socially acceptable in terms of what a society should be.

That Johnson has been mentioned as left wing conservatism shows that, that the horrible actions of IDS towards the disabled during austerities height was considered by many a necessary action not a disgrace is because of this shift of said window.

Ideas like an NHS, social housing and wellfare system in todays positioning of the overton window would have them considered far left wing, it is only because we have them they are not even seen like that.

This is where the left get it spectacularly wrong you are making an assumption that because the Tories get in the majority believe in their policies. The majority didn’t even vote for them and a lot that did had to hold their noses whilst doing it.

People believe in helping the disabled, they believe in public services, the police, education, the welfare state etc ... the window hasn’t moved greatly those to the left of the Tories are the majority. The left just need to get their shit together. The country would not vote for Corbyn Labour because of him and his manifesto. It isn’t an acceptance of IDS or many other Tory policies it’s a judgement on the Labour Party. I honestly don’t know anyone who likes the Tories or doesn’t want socialist policies.

 

[urban genie]

This is where the left get it spectacularly wrong you are making an assumption that because the Tories get in the majority believe in their policies. The majority didn’t even vote for them and a lot that did had to hold their noses whilst doing it.

People believe in helping the disabled, they believe in public services, the police, education, the welfare state etc ... the window hasn’t moved greatly those to the left of the Tories are the majority. The left just need to get their shit together. The country would not vote for Corbyn Labour because of him and his manifesto. It isn’t an acceptance of IDS or many other Tory policies it’s a judgement on the Labour Party. I honestly don’t know anyone who likes the Tories or doesn’t want socialist policies.

I am not making an assumption I an saying why the overton window does matter.

And it is a sad reflection of our democracy if policy and what a party stands for is second in your reason.

Cobyn I said shoulda been fucked off as a vote loser, and many labours policies actually got positive reports, it was the explanation of how they would be able to implement them and pay for them that put people off as unworkable.

But my point still stands what was considered 30-40 years ago as centre to soft left political thinking would now be considered far left and portrayed that way to the masses. And the same such things was austerity would be considered a sensible necessity not an right wing ideology.

 

[BlueAnorak]

He’s wrong.

The public will be paying the furlough scheme off for years to come, sitting on furlough doesn’t get the economy moving again and it means less jobs to come back to.

Depends how they do it.
Our debt will be about half that at the end of WW2 in GDP terms.
If we invest another 10% of GDP in infrastructure and the economy then we'll be fine.
My only worry is it gets pissed against the wall in social engineering.

 

[Rascal]

That's the problem with conspiracy theories. They have a potential grain of truth to them. This one started as a far-right conspiracy theory in the 1970's actually, proving that, when it comes to hating Jews, there's really little difference between the far-right and far-left. You're just as bad as each other.

Fortunately, knowing you, I genuinely believe you aren't antisemitic. But this episode and Corbyn's tenure as leader just goes to prove how easy it is to convince people that Jews are their enemy. There are people on BLM protests, who I believe genuinely want an end to discrimination against people of colour, yet who happily believe Israel - and by extension Jews - are the root of all the evil in the world. You even get people like Jackie Walker claiming Jews were behind the slave trade.

You know I am not anti semitic, I don't believe jews to be the enemy, I am not nor ever have been racist towards anybody, but I do honestly believe that there is a conflation between being AS and legitimate criticism of Israel. I would not be criticising the jewish people, I would be criticising the policies of the state/Leadership of the state, just as I would I would not be anti American because I was critical of the policies of Trump, or Anti British because I am critical of the policies Johnson nor Anti Thai because I was critical of Thaksin. A nation beyond reproach is in my opinion a dangerous thing. This may be a simplification of the point, but If I saw you in Summerbees (difficult I know because you are a midget) and I called you a ****, I wouldn't be calling you a **** because you are jewish, I would be calling you a **** because I call everyone a **** and then we would have a beer and a chat.

I do understand conspiracy theories, I know about the Protocols of the Elders of Sion and Cultural Marxism, and yes I know they can be dangerous if allowed to spread unchallenged and it is right and proper that they are challenged and made to look the dangerous stupidity they are, but and this is where I think the problem lies, any criticism can be dismissed as a conspiracy theory even if it has merit. That closes down debate, I would rather things be out in the open so we can diffentiate between what are conspiracy theories and what is legitimate criticism.

I don't have the knowledge of somebody like Skashion to debate with you over Israel/Palestine, I simply don't, its not something I have a particular interest or focus on, but I am aware others do, as has been said here that the left appear obsessed with Palestine, I am not because I don't know enough and if I don't know enough I cant form an opinion but I am open to people's opinions on the situation.

What has not helped in this matter at all from a Labour point of view is the donors to Starmer's campaign were not disclosed until after the election and that has left him open to accusations of currying favours for cash and that RLB had to go because of these links, whilst Reeves who has a history of posting stuff in favour of anti semite Nancy Astor is not censored. It makes it look like Starmer is ridding the party of the left, because certain sections of the left are pro-Palestine.

There does need to be education though about where the boundary lies between AS and legitimate criticism in my opinion. Because if am honest I haven't got much of a clue where that boundary lies and convention that Labour didn't approve says legitmate criticism is not AS, so I don't know.

 

[hilts]

I am not making an assumption I an saying why the overton window does matter.

And it is a sad reflection of our democracy if policy and what a party stands for is second in your reason.

Cobyn I said shoulda been fucked off as a vote loser, and many labours policies actually got positive reports, it was the explanation of how they would be able to implement them and pay for them that put people off as unworkable.

But my point still stands what was considered 30-40 years ago as centre to soft left political thinking would now be considered far left and portrayed that way to the masses. And the same such things was austerity would be considered a sensible necessity not an right wing ideology.

The Corbyn paragraph is literally what I said, I would like to hear what these centric policies of 30 to 40 years ago are now classed as far left. Until labour realise that just because someone thinks their policies are la la land doesn’t mean they are full on capitalist cult nutters. Any numpty can come up with let’s make everything better. The hard part is convincing people you can do it. labour keep failing miserably if you wish to delude yourself that is because the country has gone to the right that’s your business. But if you are right then the left are truly fucked.

 

[Nails]

Peake, and her ilk, should stick to the pretend industry that employs them.


Very good point, there was, then the 'Working Class,' when Tradesmen nowadays can
pull in a grand a week, that descriptive is now redundant. Plus Atlee,
even then, was a one hit wonder.


The most vocal are almost always employed in the public sector, own property,
live in leafy areas, and are never affected by the problems their views produce,
when implemented


The Labour voters of the past, that returned majorities, were mostly Royalists,
supported the armed forces, and respected the police. Speak to the recent red
wall turncoats and you find the same qualities, this Labour still
hasn't realised that.

Wow. Such self-hatred.

 

[Len Rum]

Wow. Such self-hatred.

The English way.

 

[Scottyboi]

What does Starmer do now? Lisa Nandy is calling for a boycott of west bank goods.

 

[Ban-jani]

What does Starmer do now? Lisa Nandy is calling for a boycott of west bank goods.

Someone get popcorn cat quick.

We’re about to see them implode.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

Someone get popcorn cat quick.

We’re about to see them implode.

take their new "movement" with them hopefully.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Wow. Such self-hatred.

Well, you need a psychiatrist for that mate, chin up though.

 

[Rascal]

What does Starmer do now? Lisa Nandy is calling for a boycott of west bank goods.

This is one of the problems created. If Israel annexe the West Bank as is being reported as possible, then is calling for sanctions anti-Semitic or anti-imperialist. I would say its anti=imperialist and the left has traditionally been anti-imperialist, but if it is seen as anti-Semitic then Israel can act with impunity and Starmer who is backed into a corner has to sack Nandy for supporting a long held Labour value. That further increases division in the party as it is questioning the parties commitment to being anti-imperialist.

Its a fucking mess and Starmer has made a rod for his own back by sacking RLB.

 

[Vic]

Who would want to buy goods from illegally-seized land? Would you knowingly buy a stolen car?

 

[Rascal]

I would like to hear what these centric policies of 30 to 40 years ago are now classed as far left. .

The Lib Dems promised to put 1p on income tax to raise income to spend on Education, a reasonable policy that many agreed with at the time and the Lib Dems did really well on the basis of it. The spending actually happened through the pupil premium in the coalition Government, the 1p tax rise although not raised by direct taxation came via a rise in VAT.

If Labour were to propose the same today, it would be dismissed as hard left.

That is how the Overton window works, it shifts people perceptions of what is an acceptable norm.

 

[Vic]

The Lib Dems promised to put 1p on income tax to raise income to spend on Education, a reasonable policy that many agreed with at the time and the Lib Dems did really well on the basis of it. The spending actually happened through the pupil premium in the coalition Government, the 1p tax rise although not raised by direct taxation came via a rise in VAT.

If Labour were to propose the same today, it would be dismissed as hard left.

That is how the Overton window works, it shifts people perceptions of what is an acceptable norm.

I think the perception has shifted in favour of renationalising the railways.

 

[hilts]

The Lib Dems promised to put 1p on income tax to raise income to spend on Education, a reasonable policy that many agreed with at the time and the Lib Dems did really well on the basis of it. The spending actually happened through the pupil premium in the coalition Government, the 1p tax rise although not raised by direct taxation came via a rise in VAT.

If Labour were to propose the same today, it would be dismissed as hard left.

That is how the Overton window works, it shifts people perceptions of what is an acceptable norm.

I disagree I don’t think many would even flap too much about 1p on income tax. However if it takes 1p to help education then you see Labours last manifesto people are going to think what exactly? You start adding 1p for this that and the other, start borrowing and that manifesto concerns people not just because of an increase in tax but also the impact on the economy, debt and jobs.

This has nothing to do with people being more right wing they are just concerned about the consequences. labour need to get in invest some money via fair taxes and some borrowing and show people it can work. Instead they just say they will sort everything they can think of only tax the rich and expect people to swallow it. It doesn’t work and it’s not because the public are happy for the disabled to be shit on.

 

[hilts]

I think the perception has shifted in favour of renationalising the railways.

I agree and if Labour ever get in and can make it work people will be more likely to trust them on lots of other things. They have to get in and then not fuck it up. It’s not looking likely tbh.

 

[Ban-jani]

I think the perception has shifted in favour of renationalising the railways.

Someone needs to present a clear argument on why it will be better, it will work and why it will cost the public less than train travel does now.

It’s no good just to say it for ideological reasons.

 

[Tb1981]

Someone needs to present a clear argument on why it will be better, it will work and why it will cost the public less than train travel does now.

It’s no good just to say it for ideological reasons.

Agreed
Same for water and other utilities

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

This is one of the problems created. If Israel annexe the West Bank as is being reported as possible, then is calling for sanctions anti-Semitic or anti-imperialist. I would say its anti=imperialist and the left has traditionally been anti-imperialist, but if it is seen as anti-Semitic then Israel can act with impunity and Starmer who is backed into a corner has to sack Nandy for supporting a long held Labour value. That further increases division in the party as it is questioning the parties commitment to being anti-imperialist.

Its a fucking mess and Starmer has made a rod for his own back by sacking RLB.

No it's not anti-semitic in itself. But it's hypocritical.

• China annexed Tibet and bullies others into not recognising Taiwan, claiming it as its own.
  
• Russia annexed Crimea and (effectively) the Donetsk region of Ukraine.
• Jordan annexed the whole of the West Bank in 1948 yet no one said a word.
• You barely hear a squeak out of Labour/the Left on the Kurds, who want their own state and are therefore in a not dissimilar position to the Palestinians.
• A Labour government supported an invasion of Iraq, which even if it wasn't illegal (which it probably was) was totally immoral.

Some of us on here are asking the same question, without getting an answer. What is the obsession with Israel on the left? Because in the absence of any sensible answer, the stink of antisemitism hangs over it. And when a decent guy like you gets sucked into it, you start to see how the Nazis did a similar thing.

People in Nazi Germany had Jewish friends, colleagues, neighbours, employers and employees. But Hitler succeeded in convincing the Germans that these normal individuals they interacted with on a daily basis - some nice, decent people, some maybe not so nice - were somehow not individuals with their own characteristics but part of something they created a vision of as a sinister, malevolent movement controlled by a mysterious central hand ("World Jewry"). Well, for "World Jewry" these days, the code is "Zionist" or "Israel".

And Israel is a democracy (albeit one with plenty of faults) with all the functions you expect in a democracy, such as an independent judiciary, free press, toleration of dissent and wide political views, multicultural, offering complete freedom of religion, with regular elections under proportional representation, as well as being a highly developed, hi-tech industrial powerhouse. That's everything surely a progressive citizen should want?

Yet it's bordered by Gaza, run by Hamas which is a fascist, militaristic, undemocratic, religiously fundamental organisation, which doesn't tolerate any deviation from its narrow, illiberal view. Yet supposedly democratic and freedom loving people would seemingly prefer that. Simply no logic to that at all.