Keir Starmer

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

You are just being snide now because the facts do not suit the narrative you bought into.

Like i said to you before, if you thought i was a racist/antisemite why did you ever speak to me.

It's the same reason that Corbyn has never been charged with an offence related to AS - he isn't. God knows if there were a shred of actual evidence beyond loose innuendo and association there would be plenty willing to take him to court.

 

[Rascal]

It's the same reason that Corbyn has never been charged with an offence related to AS - he isn't. God knows if there were a shred of actual evidence beyond loose innuendo and association there would be plenty willing to take him to court.

And i would want him taking to court and jailed if he broke the law and was proven to be antisemitic just as i want anyone found guilty to have the same happen to them.

 

[The perfect fumble]

You are just being snide now because the facts do not suit the narrative you bought into.

Like i said to you before, if you thought i was a racist/antisemite why did you ever speak to me.

You're wasting your time.

All his posts are variations of "when did you stop beating your wife?" When you fail to fall for his pathetic loaded questions, he falls back on....

Like I said, fascists are at least honest about their hatreds.

He accuses you of a hatefulness your dishonesty fails to conceal.

 

[Rascal]

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

LOL. JVL are fake Jews (with apologies to Trump.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

LOL. JVL are fake Jews (with apologies to Trump.

The problem for the layman is that if this is the case then what do you believe?

 

[Postman Pep]

I suppose it explains why it is so easy to be smeared when a holocaust survivor is considered fair game. Here's some more testimonies from elderly left-wing / 'fake Jews'

'The wrong sort of Jew': How Labour pursued complaints against elderly Jewish opponents of Israel

Labour's investigations into antisemitism raise questions about the nature and definition of what the party is attempting to root out

www.middleeasteye.net

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

The problem for the layman is that if this is the case then what do you believe?

You certainly don't believe people like Naomi Wimborne Idrissi, who has accused Israel of exploiting the Holocaust and called for Jewish groups like JLM, one of the earliest affiliates to the Labour party, to be kicked out of Labour, as well as outright denying there was any issue of antisemitism in the Labour party. At least Rasc has admitted there was.

Ironically, while wanting to deny mainstream Jewish groups a voice in the Labour party, Wimborne Idrissi is co-founder of an organisation called 'Free Speech on Israel'.

 

[urban genie]

It's the same reason that Corbyn has never been charged with an offence related to AS - he isn't. God knows if there were a shred of actual evidence beyond loose innuendo and association there would be plenty willing to take him to court.

If a manager of a business or a team leader of a group had a racist member of staff, who showed that racism, but said manager failed to deal with it or was slow to react.

That is a sign of incompetence, it does not mean that manager/team leader is also racist, just incompetent.


Corbyn was incompetent of realising the need to quelle the minority of those AS and being stuborn anf having a siege mentality over critism.

That does not directly make him anti-semetic or racist, just fucking useless.

 

[Summerbuzz]

Some say socialist ideologues are especially prone to infighting and defensiveness when there's a 'strong' male opposition leader who profits from divisions in the opposition.

Anyone would think they were scared of fighting the real enemy.

The Anti-semitism argument is never going to be resolved without the acceptance that it's all too easy to overstep the mark, and let criticism of Israeli Domestic / Foreign policy bleed into terms and arguments highly offensive to many, ending up in a never ending row.

Meanwhile, Tory sponsored fuel poverty will compound with Corona this winter, and cost lives. How about some constructive, strategic outrage on that score. Boris and Tories will instinctively poo-poo the issue and resort to lazy moralising, but the public and media disapproval will only increase, leaving the Tories unable to explain their moral stance without seeming inhumane. I bet you it can be done.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

You certainly don't believe people like Naomi Wimborne Idrissi, who has accused Israel of exploiting the Holocaust and called for Jewish groups like JLM, one of the earliest affiliates to the Labour party, to be kicked out of Labour, as well as outright denying there was any issue of antisemitism in the Labour party. At least Rasc has admitted there was.

Ironically, while wanting to deny mainstream Jewish groups a voice in the Labour party, Wimborne Idrissi is co-founder of an organisation called 'Free Speech on Israel'.

Is that the woman in the video? The problem is that you seem like a nice/decent bloke, so does the old lady in that video, so does rascal. Usually I'd think it was time to agree to disagree and change the subject but that feels like a cop out re AS.

 

[urban genie]

However the JLM forget their socialist roots as when formed they, like many of the first zionist movements dreamt of a Jewish homeland built on socialsm, colectivism and co-operatives sharing the land of their ancestors with the populations of the ottoman era in peace and unity.

The objection of many left wing and socialists in the jewish community that are labelled "the wrong type of jew" oppose Likud and the skewering of the original utopian ideal of a socialist jewish state by right wing and more capitalist factions that have grown over the decades since.


And this is the problem some of the left have, the distain for likud and the right wing government of isreal leads them to use tired old AS tropes or to use the generic term Isreal to criticise actions of the nations leaders not the jewish people. which then in turn leads to accusations of AS where some (not all mind as the left can be an intolerant breed in cases) mistakenly link all tings together. It also leads to some on the right to use this critism that is blurred by some to attack the left in general.

In the AS row neither side come out looking like anything than charlatans where their own interest count more, hodge, BoD and Corbyn all with their own agendas and failings.


This is the starmer thread though so that's my 2 peneth and next post will be back on about that bland **** in charge of labour.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Is that the woman in the video? The problem is that you seem like a nice/decent bloke, so does the old lady in that video, so does rascal. Usually I'd think it was time to agree to disagree and change the subject but that feels like a cop out re AS.

It's a very emotive subject of course. I don't know you or perfect fumble but I'd be happy to have a beer with you anytime. I do know Rascal and would class him as a friend. He's very principled but, on this, we disagree.

However we do agree on a couple of things I think. One is that there was clearly antisemitism from members of the Labour party. The other is that some of the reaction (although certainly not all) was hysterical and unhelpful. But the only reason it became a running sore ("weaponised" if you like) was that Corbyn, by his failure to nip it in the bud and his craven failure to back his Jewish MP's, allowed it to be.

The only thing I want, as I'm sure Russ does, is for the Labour party to be a place where racism of any sort isn't tolerated. And on that note I'm going to step back from this subject.

 

[Rascal]

The only thing I want, as I'm sure Russ does, is for the Labour party to be a place where racism of any sort isn't tolerated. And on that note I'm going to step back from this subject.

Wrong, i want a world where racism of any sort is not tolerated and anybody guilty of it is shamed and has the full force of the law applied to them.

I don't differentiate between forms of discrimination, they are all wrong in my eyes. That is why i am so angry about what has happened to the Labour party and seeing accusations aimed at good people who are not racist and have a similar outlook to me.

I care little about the Israel/Palestine issue, i care about the UK and what i see is that the continual exaggeration of antisemitic claims has left us with a government that doesn't give a fuck about anybody apart from their own. The damage the claims have done is bad enough that Jewish people felt unsafe and victimised but it has also impacted on the rest of the UK and left us with a gang of incompetent corrupt bastards in charge. I genuinely feel sorry for what you Col have had to put up with but i also feel sorry for the people smeared with accusations, many of them spurious and despite all the evidence to the contrary the Labour Party is not institutionally racist, yes it has a problem with antisemitism and i want that sorted out asap, but i dont want to see Keith sorting it the way he is doing by a blanket cull of the left because the overwhelming majority of the left had fuck all to do with the problem as the facts show.

Whoever ultimately was behind all this has done a bang up job, there are various theories as to who and why, but one thing for sure is they all but destroyed the Labour party for at least a decade and probably more.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Wrong, i want a world where racism of any sort is not tolerated and anybody guilty of it is shamed and has the full force of the law applied to them.

I don't differentiate between forms of discrimination, they are all wrong in my eyes. That is why i am so angry about what has happened to the Labour party and seeing accusations aimed at good people who are not racist and have a similar outlook to me.

I care little about the Israel/Palestine issue, i care about the UK and what i see is that the continual exaggeration of antisemitic claims has left us with a government that doesn't give a fuck about anybody apart from their own. The damage the claims have done is bad enough that Jewish people felt unsafe and victimised but it has also impacted on the rest of the UK and left us with a gang of incompetent corrupt bastards in charge. I genuinely feel sorry for what you Col have had to put up with but i also feel sorry for the people smeared with accusations, many of them spurious and despite all the evidence to the contrary the Labour Party is not institutionally racist, yes it has a problem with antisemitism and i want that sorted out asap, but i dont want to see Keith sorting it the way he is doing by a blanket cull of the left because the overwhelming majority of the left had fuck all to do with the problem as the facts show.

Whoever ultimately was behind all this has done a bang up job, there are various theories as to who and why, but one thing for sure is they all but destroyed the Labour party for at least a decade and probably more.

So in your view does the damage done mean the Labour party is unelectable for this term and the next? The thought of these bastards being in power for another term after this one makes me ill.

 

[joe123]

So in your view does the damage done mean the Labour party is unelectable for this term and the next? The thought of these bastards being in power for another term after this one makes me ill.

You’d hope that the prospect of that would sharpen focus on winning the GE but sadly different groups within Labour seem intent on tearing each other down.

 

[Rascal]

So in your view does the damage done mean the Labour party is unelectable for this term and the next? The thought of these bastards being in power for another term after this one makes me ill.

I think it has no chance at all for the foreseeable future, i am not even certain there will be a Labour Party at all. Plus if there is a Labour party that is dominated by the "moderates" i really cant see many on the left voting for it, because of the lack of support from the "moderates" when the left held the upper hand. The "moderates" it appeared would rather have a Tory government than a Socialist government.

The big problem as I see it is that the majority of the membership are to the left of the PLP. When Corbyn won the leadership election the PLP viewed it as an aberration and thought they knew better than the membership. The likes of Steven Kinnock were actually celebrating a Labour defeat. That is how bad the divisions had become.

So the party goes one of two ways, it either purges the PLP or it purges the membership, so that the PLP reflect the membership. This it appear to be the choice the choice of Keith, he wants a party that reflects the make up of the PLP which means those on the left of the party are not welcome. This is why I believe Keith is pushing the action against Corbyn as that is the obvious way to get rid of the left. He is calculating that if Corbyn goes the left goes with him and he can make up the lost votes by appealing to the centrists on a more moderate platform.

The thing is though and it really could open a huge can of worms is the Forde report, instigated by Starmer himself that is looking into the party machinery. It was officially an attempt to root out antisemitism but if it does uncover clear evidence of party HQ interference against Corbyn then I think it is game over for the Labour party as an electoral force and the party will split. Because it cannot be both, it cannot have a moderate PLP and a left wing membership and it cannot have a left wing leadership and a moderate PLP.

I don't envy Keith's job, I honestly wish him well as he is better than Johnson but then so is my cactus plant, but Keith hasn't helped himself and instead of being concillatory towards the left and having RLB in the cabinet, he decided to go a different way and marginalise the left. I have my own views on this and he has done it because he i believe he is calculating taking a position of rejoining the EU and hoping that the loss of the left will be made up by attracting the Pro EU vote. If that is the case it is a huge gamble.

He probably also realises that he has to soft soap the right wing media and show he is no threat to capitalism or he runs the risk of a similar campaign against him that all Labour leaders have gone through. He may be thinking that by being moderate and getting rid of the left it makes him a "safe" alternative to Johnson, the problem by doing that is of course the left will look upon it as a betrayal of Socialist values and an acceptance of the neo-liberal status quo. If he does that though then the party will have to rely on donors because the membership is falling at an alarming rate and the Unions may pull funding and what we end up is a UK version of American two party politics with the Labour party being the Democrats and the Tories being the Republicans, both right wing parties with right wing economic policies, the difference being one is socially liberal and the other socially conservative.

It is a bleak future for the left mate, very bleak. We were so close too.

 

[Fame Monster]

I've come to the conclusion he isn't AS. I've based this on the fact that we have pretty strong legislation in the UK to deal with those who are, and no one has yet come up with a substantive allegation against him and therefore no prosecution.
It all seems to be smoke - failing to say things, being friendly to people who might be connected to AS etc. Even Starmer and co struggled to come up with a reason to kick him out so had to let him back in.

Not sure I'd buy into the 'no prosecution means no racism'. Look at Wiley for example. He pretty much said the most antisemitic things it's possible to say and even threatened violence against Jews and he hasn't been prosecuted.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I think it has no chance at all for the foreseeable future, i am not even certain there will be a Labour Party at all. Plus if there is a Labour party that is dominated by the "moderates" i really cant see many on the left voting for it, because of the lack of support from the "moderates" when the left held the upper hand. The "moderates" it appeared would rather have a Tory government than a Socialist government.

The big problem as I see it is that the majority of the membership are to the left of the PLP. When Corbyn won the leadership election the PLP viewed it as an aberration and thought they knew better than the membership. The likes of Steven Kinnock were actually celebrating a Labour defeat. That is how bad the divisions had become.

So the party goes one of two ways, it either purges the PLP or it purges the membership, so that the PLP reflect the membership. This it appear to be the choice the choice of Keith, he wants a party that reflects the make up of the PLP which means those on the left of the party are not welcome. This is why I believe Keith is pushing the action against Corbyn as that is the obvious way to get rid of the left. He is calculating that if Corbyn goes the left goes with him and he can make up the lost votes by appealing to the centrists on a more moderate platform.

The thing is though and it really could open a huge can of worms is the Forde report, instigated by Starmer himself that is looking into the party machinery. It was officially an attempt to root out antisemitism but if it does uncover clear evidence of party HQ interference against Corbyn then I think it is game over for the Labour party as an electoral force and the party will split. Because it cannot be both, it cannot have a moderate PLP and a left wing membership and it cannot have a left wing leadership and a moderate PLP.

I don't envy Keith's job, I honestly wish him well as he is better than Johnson but then so is my cactus plant, but Keith hasn't helped himself and instead of being concillatory towards the left and having RLB in the cabinet, he decided to go a different way and marginalise the left. I have my own views on this and he has done it because he i believe he is calculating taking a position of rejoining the EU and hoping that the loss of the left will be made up by attracting the Pro EU vote. If that is the case it is a huge gamble.

He probably also realises that he has to soft soap the right wing media and show he is no threat to capitalism or he runs the risk of a similar campaign against him that all Labour leaders have gone through. He may be thinking that by being moderate and getting rid of the left it makes him a "safe" alternative to Johnson, the problem by doing that is of course the left will look upon it as a betrayal of Socialist values and an acceptance of the neo-liberal status quo. If he does that though then the party will have to rely on donors because the membership is falling at an alarming rate and the Unions may pull funding and what we end up is a UK version of American two politics with the Labour party being the Democrats and the Tories being the Republicans, both right wing parties with right wing economic policies, the difference being one is socially liberal and the other socially conservative.

It is a bleak future for the left mate, very bleak. We were so close too.

That post is worthy of a more considered response than I am capable of tonight. Thanks for taking the time and I will return to it tomorrow.

 

[The perfect fumble]

I think it has no chance at all for the foreseeable future, i am not even certain there will be a Labour Party at all. Plus if there is a Labour party that is dominated by the "moderates" i really cant see many on the left voting for it, because of the lack of support from the "moderates" when the left held the upper hand. The "moderates" it appeared would rather have a Tory government than a Socialist government.

The big problem as I see it is that the majority of the membership are to the left of the PLP. When Corbyn won the leadership election the PLP viewed it as an aberration and thought they knew better than the membership. The likes of Steven Kinnock were actually celebrating a Labour defeat. That is how bad the divisions had become.

So the party goes one of two ways, it either purges the PLP or it purges the membership, so that the PLP reflect the membership. This it appear to be the choice the choice of Keith, he wants a party that reflects the make up of the PLP which means those on the left of the party are not welcome. This is why I believe Keith is pushing the action against Corbyn as that is the obvious way to get rid of the left. He is calculating that if Corbyn goes the left goes with him and he can make up the lost votes by appealing to the centrists on a more moderate platform.

The thing is though and it really could open a huge can of worms is the Forde report, instigated by Starmer himself that is looking into the party machinery. It was officially an attempt to root out antisemitism but if it does uncover clear evidence of party HQ interference against Corbyn then I think it is game over for the Labour party as an electoral force and the party will split. Because it cannot be both, it cannot have a moderate PLP and a left wing membership and it cannot have a left wing leadership and a moderate PLP.

I don't envy Keith's job, I honestly wish him well as he is better than Johnson but then so is my cactus plant, but Keith hasn't helped himself and instead of being concillatory towards the left and having RLB in the cabinet, he decided to go a different way and marginalise the left. I have my own views on this and he has done it because he i believe he is calculating taking a position of rejoining the EU and hoping that the loss of the left will be made up by attracting the Pro EU vote. If that is the case it is a huge gamble.

He probably also realises that he has to soft soap the right wing media and show he is no threat to capitalism or he runs the risk of a similar campaign against him that all Labour leaders have gone through. He may be thinking that by being moderate and getting rid of the left it makes him a "safe" alternative to Johnson, the problem by doing that is of course the left will look upon it as a betrayal of Socialist values and an acceptance of the neo-liberal status quo. If he does that though then the party will have to rely on donors because the membership is falling at an alarming rate and the Unions may pull funding and what we end up is a UK version of American two politics with the Labour party being the Democrats and the Tories being the Republicans, both right wing parties with right wing economic policies, the difference being one is socially liberal and the other socially conservative.

It is a bleak future for the left mate, very bleak. We were so close too.

Starmer shows no sign of backing down, he's suspended constituency parties who've gone against his diktat and passed motions in support of Corbyn.

Now the centre has gone further than their original instruction, which had banned discussion about the withdrawal of the whip because it might cause some members to feel uncomfortable, which was was both preposterous and deeply undemocratic. To now suggesting that those calling for it to be discussed are doing so specifically to cause discomfort to those members, which is preposterous, undemocratic and deeply offensive.




It's clear that whatever Starmer is doing he's doing by design, this isn't a fuck up.