Keir Starmer

So Democratic Socialism is far left now?

I wish somebody on the left would form a new party that could act like UKIP did on the Tories and drag the Labour party back towards the left and away from the centrist nonsense that in reality is just more neo liberalism.
Labour tried going further to the left with Gordon Brown, Ed Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn as leaders, and got rejected by the electorate each time.

I think Momentum did what you are suggesting, but from inside the Labour party. It succeeded in dragging the party left, but the electorate just didn't follow.

That's the point I was making earlier, irrespective of what you or I might want in an ideal world, the electorate in 2022 will only elect a centre-left Labour government, or a Tory PM.
 
Labour tried going further to the left with Gordon Brown, Ed Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn as leaders, and got rejected by the electorate each time.

I think Momentum did what you are suggesting, but from inside the Labour party. It succeeded in dragging the party left, but the electorate just didn't follow.

That's the point I was making earlier, irrespective of what you or I might want in an ideal world, the electorate in 2022 will only elect a centre-left Labour government, or a Tory PM.
Brown and Miliband were Social Democrats, Corbyn is a Democratic Socialist. That makes Corbyn centre left and the others on the right of the Labour party, the real left of the party is people like me who tend towards Communist ideology. The problem is the left has been so demonised in the media is that anyone who has the remotest left wing ideology is now classed as a Marxist. Mick Lynch has been accused of being a Marxist ffs. It is all about the eradication of Socialism because Socialism threatens those with the most.

Momentum even at its peak were only 1 in 10 of Labour party members, their influence is vastly inflated in much the same way the militant tendency in the 80s was vastly overstated.

The Labour party under Starmer is being dragged rightwards so that if the electorate want an alternative to the Tories, the alternative is not that damaging to the interests of capital. Starmers refusal to commit to Nationalisation is evidence of this.

This has been going on a long time, since the early 70s in this country when various think tanks were set up using shady money in order to destroy the post WW2 social consensus. Those think tanks flooded the media with anti left wing propaganda , which allowed for the rise of neo-liberalism and what we see now in the destruction of the social welfare state and NHS. The gains made in social cohesion after WW2 cost those with the most and they have fought back and looking at the current crop of Tories they would be quite happy with a return to serfdom.

In my opinion the only way we can fight back is not by imitating the nonsense of the RW but by opposing the RW, Starmer is after imitating them with a few bones for the working class, he does not want to challenge the hegemony of the neo-liberal order because he is comfortable with the neo liberal orthodoxy.

Starmer needs to get out there and say he will nationalise the public utilities and transport systems, he will fund the NHS properly, he will back the Unions,he will fund a proper welfare state and actually say he is sticking up for the working class and not the owners of capital who have taken the piss out of us for so long.
 
Brown and Miliband were Social Democrats, Corbyn is a Democratic Socialist. That makes Corbyn centre left and the others on the right of the Labour party, the real left of the party is people like me who tend towards Communist ideology. The problem is the left has been so demonised in the media is that anyone who has the remotest left wing ideology is now classed as a Marxist. Mick Lynch has been accused of being a Marxist ffs. It is all about the eradication of Socialism because Socialism threatens those with the most.

Momentum even at its peak were only 1 in 10 of Labour party members, their influence is vastly inflated in much the same way the militant tendency in the 80s was vastly overstated.

The Labour party under Starmer is being dragged rightwards so that if the electorate want an alternative to the Tories, the alternative is not that damaging to the interests of capital. Starmers refusal to commit to Nationalisation is evidence of this.

This has been going on a long time, since the early 70s in this country when various think tanks were set up using shady money in order to destroy the post WW2 social consensus. Those think tanks flooded the media with anti left wing propaganda , which allowed for the rise of neo-liberalism and what we see now in the destruction of the social welfare state and NHS. The gains made in social cohesion after WW2 cost those with the most and they have fought back and looking at the current crop of Tories they would be quite happy with a return to serfdom.

In my opinion the only way we can fight back is not by imitating the nonsense of the RW but by opposing the RW, Starmer is after imitating them with a few bones for the working class, he does not want to challenge the hegemony of the neo-liberal order because he is comfortable with the neo liberal orthodoxy.

Starmer needs to get out there and say he will nationalise the public utilities and transport systems, he will fund the NHS properly, he will back the Unions,he will fund a proper welfare state and actually say he is sticking up for the working class and not the owners of capital who have taken the piss out of us for so long.
You're getting into semantics about what's considered far left. If you class yourself as someone who tends towards Communist ideology, then it's pretty likely your definition of what you consider to be far left or centrist is very different from the electorate's definition.

I'm loosely using the definition of centre ground as based on the average view of the electorate. Based on election results of the last 30 years, Gordon Brown, Ed Milliband and Jeremy Corbyn were too far to the left for the electorate.

I appreciate they were not too far to the left for you, but perhaps the centre ground of the UK electorate is further to the right than you realised.

Blair won 3 elections, Starmer is 10 points ahead in the polls, Brown, Ed Milliband and Corbyn all got trounced in elections, that tells you all you need to know. It can't all be the Daily Mail's fault. They absolutely slaughtered Blair, but he still managed 3 healthy majorities.

I come back to my point, it's a binary choice at the next election - centre left Starmer or Liz fucking Truss.
 
You're getting into semantics about what's considered far left. If you class yourself as someone who tends towards Communist ideology, then it's pretty likely your definition of what you consider to be far left or centrist is very different from the electorate's definition.

I'm loosely using the definition of centre ground as based on the average view of the electorate. Based on election results of the last 30 years, Gordon Brown, Ed Milliband and Jeremy Corbyn were too far to the left for the electorate.

I appreciate they were not too far to the left for you, but perhaps the centre ground of the UK electorate is further to the right than you realised.

Blair won 3 elections, Starmer is 10 points ahead in the polls, Brown, Ed Milliband and Corbyn all got trounced in elections, that tells you all you need to know. It can't all be the Daily Mail's fault. They absolutely slaughtered Blair, but he still managed 3 healthy majorities.

I come back to my point, it's a binary choice at the next election - centre left Starmer or Liz fucking Truss.

The problem with the premise of this post is that you assume people are giving their votes on the basis of left or right and policies.

On number of occasions when analysis has been carried out, what the analysis actually showed was people vote for narratives and how in touch their feel the parties are with them.

That’s a perception issue of course and the perception could be wrong, Boris Von Pfeffal is not more in touch with working class people than Jeremy Corbyn.

Also worth pointing out that ex Labour supporters voted for UKIP and the Brexit Party instead of the Tories. They would rather vote for the far far right than the far right version of the Conservative party.

Tories are very successful at setting the narrative and creating the environment where they are the natural winner. Austerity and bankrupt Britain or Brexit and take back control.

Unfortunately there are plenty of foolish gullible people who believe the lies.
 
Those who say Starmer says or does nothing he has at least put this out this morning - meanwhile Johnson is still our PM but would rather be on holiday or in another country getting his ego massaged and for the rest of his mob every news outlet reports the govt says "no Minister was available for comment" -

 
Those who say Starmer says or does nothing he has at least put this out this morning - meanwhile Johnson is still our PM but would rather be on holiday or in another country getting his ego massaged and for the rest of his mob every news outlet reports the govt says "no Minister was available for comment" -


Fair enough - off the fence for once.
 
Those who say Starmer says or does nothing he has at least put this out this morning - meanwhile Johnson is still our PM but would rather be on holiday or in another country getting his ego massaged and for the rest of his mob every news outlet reports the govt says "no Minister was available for comment" -


Always good to see the opposition getting firm policies across and now people are starting to listen, rather than thinking it was always a Tory plan, maybe they‘ll actually take onboard what the Labour message is.

A party for the current day workforce.
 
Always good to see the opposition getting firm policies across and now people are starting to listen, rather than thinking it was always a Tory plan, maybe they‘ll actually take onboard what the Labour message is.

A party for the current day workforce.
They've nicked a couple of his policies. Albeit watered down but sold as being the same.
 
Those who say Starmer says or does nothing he has at least put this out this morning - meanwhile Johnson is still our PM but would rather be on holiday or in another country getting his ego massaged and for the rest of his mob every news outlet reports the govt says "no Minister was available for comment" -



Anyone who pretends Starmer is a Tory in disguise is lying.

 
Anyone who pretends Starmer is a Tory in disguise is lying.


Starmer is calmly trying to appeal to a large demographic in order to win an election. From there he can then implement policies that will help those who need it most.

It’s a very fine line.
 
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You're getting into semantics about what's considered far left. If you class yourself as someone who tends towards Communist ideology, then it's pretty likely your definition of what you consider to be far left or centrist is very different from the electorate's definition.

I'm loosely using the definition of centre ground as based on the average view of the electorate. Based on election results of the last 30 years, Gordon Brown, Ed Milliband and Jeremy Corbyn were too far to the left for the electorate.

I appreciate they were not too far to the left for you, but perhaps the centre ground of the UK electorate is further to the right than you realised.

Blair won 3 elections, Starmer is 10 points ahead in the polls, Brown, Ed Milliband and Corbyn all got trounced in elections, that tells you all you need to know. It can't all be the Daily Mail's fault. They absolutely slaughtered Blair, but he still managed 3 healthy majorities.

I come back to my point, it's a binary choice at the next election - centre left Starmer or Liz fucking Truss.
Those prior elections were when times were good
Guarantee if Corbyn was Labour leader now Labour would be well ahead
 
Anyone who pretends Starmer is a Tory in disguise is lying.


Yet he's blocking the selection of a good local candidate with socialist principles being selected to run for a seat and parachuting in Eddie Izzard to it.
 
Yet he's blocking the selection of a good local candidate with socialist principles being selected to run for a seat and parachuting in Eddie Izzard to it.
We really do need a new party of the left. Let the centrist mugs do there thing, sadly it may well mean more years of the Tories but I am hoping an annilihation of the centrist mugs at the next election finally condemns them to the dustbin of history just like there SDP and Liberal forbears.

Starmers refusal to call for nationalisation of the basic needs industries is the final blow for me.

LABOUR’S road to election victory would be more certain if it presented a raft of policies which tackle the real-life problems faced by the many millions whose living depends on their wages, their pensions or the benefits they have earned and deserve.

Unite’s Sharon Graham has done us a service by pointing out as sharply as she did on BBC Radio 4’s Broadcasting House programme that the issue is “abhorrent profits” and “what is happening with the cost of living.”

In the face of a self-induced paralysis of government — occasioned by the inability or unwillingness of the two contenders for the leadership of the Tory Party to say what are their proposals for dealing with the energy price crisis — Labour has an open goal.

With its latest proposal, Labour has sent the ball in the right direction but missed the goal mouth.

The fact is that Labour’s £29 billion energy bills scheme is not ambitious enough to cover the anticipated increase in the energy price cap, because it fails to take account of the average consumer’s increased energy in the winter.

The Institute of Fiscal Studies estimates argues that Labour’s scheme to freeze the price cap would cost at least £8 billion more than Labour estimates.

Sir Keir Starmer’s £29bn scheme calls for the government to freeze household energy bills at the springtime 2022 price cap until April next year, rather than letting it shoot up in October 2022 and January 2023.

Labour is silent on whether households should be directly funded to pay bills or the energy companies directly subsidised. Either way this will be our money going to shareholders. Nationalisation is a better option.

Those on the left who have always opposed the privatisation of energy production and distribution can take some satisfaction from the fact that substantial majorities of opinion — encompassing even a majority of Conservative voters — are in favour of public ownership of utilities, rail and mail.

Ownership is key and with the entire sector publicly owned a government, if it so willed, could take such steps as are necessary to ensure continued supplies at reasonable cost.

The French government has increased its majority stake in the national energy enterprise EDF and thus is able to shield the French people from the speculators’ global energy cartel.

We can speculate on the factors that induced the impeccably neoliberal big business-friendly ex-banker who sits in the Elysee to devise this scheme but it seems improbable that President Emmanuel Macron was simply moved by concern for the French people, a majority of whom did not vote for him.

Perhaps he is frightened that to the “gilets jaune” who mobilised against the government when he put the petrol price up might be joined once gain by the “gilets rouge” of the Confederation Generale du Travail.

We have to ask ourselves why, in the face of such broad support for public ownership and the proven value of this in dealing with the energy price crisis, Labour does not attack the Tories where they are weakest.

If Labour is not careful, whoever wins the Tory leadership will come out with a policy that is more radical than Labour’s.

It would be ridiculous if, during a massive wave of pay strikes, Labour remains committed to a minimum wage policy less generous than the Tories’ and at risk from being outflanked on the main issue which shapes the political and economic views of the British people

Just fucking go Starmer, you are fucking useless.
 
You're getting into semantics about what's considered far left. If you class yourself as someone who tends towards Communist ideology, then it's pretty likely your definition of what you consider to be far left or centrist is very different from the electorate's definition.

I'm loosely using the definition of centre ground as based on the average view of the electorate. Based on election results of the last 30 years, Gordon Brown, Ed Milliband and Jeremy Corbyn were too far to the left for the electorate.

I appreciate they were not too far to the left for you, but perhaps the centre ground of the UK electorate is further to the right than you realised.

Blair won 3 elections, Starmer is 10 points ahead in the polls, Brown, Ed Milliband and Corbyn all got trounced in elections, that tells you all you need to know. It can't all be the Daily Mail's fault. They absolutely slaughtered Blair, but he still managed 3 healthy majorities.

I come back to my point, it's a binary choice at the next election - centre left Starmer or Liz fucking Truss.
Brown wasn’t too far left, he was blamed incorrectly for the dire situation the country was in during the financial crash, when he probably made the best decision of anyone around that time, in bailing out the banks.
 
We really do need a new party of the left. Let the centrist mugs do there thing, sadly it may well mean more years of the Tories but I am hoping an annilihation of the centrist mugs at the next election finally condemns them to the dustbin of history just like there SDP and Liberal forbears.

Starmers refusal to call for nationalisation of the basic needs industries is the final blow for me.

LABOUR’S road to election victory would be more certain if it presented a raft of policies which tackle the real-life problems faced by the many millions whose living depends on their wages, their pensions or the benefits they have earned and deserve.

Unite’s Sharon Graham has done us a service by pointing out as sharply as she did on BBC Radio 4’s Broadcasting House programme that the issue is “abhorrent profits” and “what is happening with the cost of living.”

In the face of a self-induced paralysis of government — occasioned by the inability or unwillingness of the two contenders for the leadership of the Tory Party to say what are their proposals for dealing with the energy price crisis — Labour has an open goal.

With its latest proposal, Labour has sent the ball in the right direction but missed the goal mouth.

The fact is that Labour’s £29 billion energy bills scheme is not ambitious enough to cover the anticipated increase in the energy price cap, because it fails to take account of the average consumer’s increased energy in the winter.

The Institute of Fiscal Studies estimates argues that Labour’s scheme to freeze the price cap would cost at least £8 billion more than Labour estimates.

Sir Keir Starmer’s £29bn scheme calls for the government to freeze household energy bills at the springtime 2022 price cap until April next year, rather than letting it shoot up in October 2022 and January 2023.

Labour is silent on whether households should be directly funded to pay bills or the energy companies directly subsidised. Either way this will be our money going to shareholders. Nationalisation is a better option.

Those on the left who have always opposed the privatisation of energy production and distribution can take some satisfaction from the fact that substantial majorities of opinion — encompassing even a majority of Conservative voters — are in favour of public ownership of utilities, rail and mail.

Ownership is key and with the entire sector publicly owned a government, if it so willed, could take such steps as are necessary to ensure continued supplies at reasonable cost.

The French government has increased its majority stake in the national energy enterprise EDF and thus is able to shield the French people from the speculators’ global energy cartel.

We can speculate on the factors that induced the impeccably neoliberal big business-friendly ex-banker who sits in the Elysee to devise this scheme but it seems improbable that President Emmanuel Macron was simply moved by concern for the French people, a majority of whom did not vote for him.

Perhaps he is frightened that to the “gilets jaune” who mobilised against the government when he put the petrol price up might be joined once gain by the “gilets rouge” of the Confederation Generale du Travail.

We have to ask ourselves why, in the face of such broad support for public ownership and the proven value of this in dealing with the energy price crisis, Labour does not attack the Tories where they are weakest.

If Labour is not careful, whoever wins the Tory leadership will come out with a policy that is more radical than Labour’s.

It would be ridiculous if, during a massive wave of pay strikes, Labour remains committed to a minimum wage policy less generous than the Tories’ and at risk from being outflanked on the main issue which shapes the political and economic views of the British people

Just fucking go Starmer, you are fucking useless.
I suppose I’m classed as a centrist mug. No reason to read any further.
 
We really do need a new party of the left. Let the centrist mugs do there thing, sadly it may well mean more years of the Tories but I am hoping an annilihation of the centrist mugs at the next election finally condemns them to the dustbin of history just like there SDP and Liberal forbears.

Starmers refusal to call for nationalisation of the basic needs industries is the final blow for me.

LABOUR’S road to election victory would be more certain if it presented a raft of policies which tackle the real-life problems faced by the many millions whose living depends on their wages, their pensions or the benefits they have earned and deserve.

Unite’s Sharon Graham has done us a service by pointing out as sharply as she did on BBC Radio 4’s Broadcasting House programme that the issue is “abhorrent profits” and “what is happening with the cost of living.”

In the face of a self-induced paralysis of government — occasioned by the inability or unwillingness of the two contenders for the leadership of the Tory Party to say what are their proposals for dealing with the energy price crisis — Labour has an open goal.

With its latest proposal, Labour has sent the ball in the right direction but missed the goal mouth.

The fact is that Labour’s £29 billion energy bills scheme is not ambitious enough to cover the anticipated increase in the energy price cap, because it fails to take account of the average consumer’s increased energy in the winter.

The Institute of Fiscal Studies estimates argues that Labour’s scheme to freeze the price cap would cost at least £8 billion more than Labour estimates.

Sir Keir Starmer’s £29bn scheme calls for the government to freeze household energy bills at the springtime 2022 price cap until April next year, rather than letting it shoot up in October 2022 and January 2023.

Labour is silent on whether households should be directly funded to pay bills or the energy companies directly subsidised. Either way this will be our money going to shareholders. Nationalisation is a better option.

Those on the left who have always opposed the privatisation of energy production and distribution can take some satisfaction from the fact that substantial majorities of opinion — encompassing even a majority of Conservative voters — are in favour of public ownership of utilities, rail and mail.

Ownership is key and with the entire sector publicly owned a government, if it so willed, could take such steps as are necessary to ensure continued supplies at reasonable cost.

The French government has increased its majority stake in the national energy enterprise EDF and thus is able to shield the French people from the speculators’ global energy cartel.

We can speculate on the factors that induced the impeccably neoliberal big business-friendly ex-banker who sits in the Elysee to devise this scheme but it seems improbable that President Emmanuel Macron was simply moved by concern for the French people, a majority of whom did not vote for him.

Perhaps he is frightened that to the “gilets jaune” who mobilised against the government when he put the petrol price up might be joined once gain by the “gilets rouge” of the Confederation Generale du Travail.

We have to ask ourselves why, in the face of such broad support for public ownership and the proven value of this in dealing with the energy price crisis, Labour does not attack the Tories where they are weakest.

If Labour is not careful, whoever wins the Tory leadership will come out with a policy that is more radical than Labour’s.

It would be ridiculous if, during a massive wave of pay strikes, Labour remains committed to a minimum wage policy less generous than the Tories’ and at risk from being outflanked on the main issue which shapes the political and economic views of the British people

Just fucking go Starmer, you are fucking useless.

That’s a really good post mate and I agree with the bulk of it and I am a centrist mug.

Things have to change in society drastically. Current policy and the way of things is letting us down with increasingly disastrous effect.

Westminster as a whole is seemingly bereft of any idea as to how to change things it seems.

Nationalisation of key industries like energy, rail etc, an end to abhorrent profiteering by the few at the expense of the many and fair working conditions and pay for the millions of us that go out each and every day to make the whole thing work is not too much to expect imo.
 
We really do need a new party of the left. Let the centrist mugs do there thing, sadly it may well mean more years of the Tories but I am hoping an annilihation of the centrist mugs at the next election finally condemns them to the dustbin of history just like there SDP and Liberal forbears.

Starmers refusal to call for nationalisation of the basic needs industries is the final blow for me.

LABOUR’S road to election victory would be more certain if it presented a raft of policies which tackle the real-life problems faced by the many millions whose living depends on their wages, their pensions or the benefits they have earned and deserve.

Unite’s Sharon Graham has done us a service by pointing out as sharply as she did on BBC Radio 4’s Broadcasting House programme that the issue is “abhorrent profits” and “what is happening with the cost of living.”

In the face of a self-induced paralysis of government — occasioned by the inability or unwillingness of the two contenders for the leadership of the Tory Party to say what are their proposals for dealing with the energy price crisis — Labour has an open goal.

With its latest proposal, Labour has sent the ball in the right direction but missed the goal mouth.

The fact is that Labour’s £29 billion energy bills scheme is not ambitious enough to cover the anticipated increase in the energy price cap, because it fails to take account of the average consumer’s increased energy in the winter.

The Institute of Fiscal Studies estimates argues that Labour’s scheme to freeze the price cap would cost at least £8 billion more than Labour estimates.

Sir Keir Starmer’s £29bn scheme calls for the government to freeze household energy bills at the springtime 2022 price cap until April next year, rather than letting it shoot up in October 2022 and January 2023.

Labour is silent on whether households should be directly funded to pay bills or the energy companies directly subsidised. Either way this will be our money going to shareholders. Nationalisation is a better option.

Those on the left who have always opposed the privatisation of energy production and distribution can take some satisfaction from the fact that substantial majorities of opinion — encompassing even a majority of Conservative voters — are in favour of public ownership of utilities, rail and mail.

Ownership is key and with the entire sector publicly owned a government, if it so willed, could take such steps as are necessary to ensure continued supplies at reasonable cost.

The French government has increased its majority stake in the national energy enterprise EDF and thus is able to shield the French people from the speculators’ global energy cartel.

We can speculate on the factors that induced the impeccably neoliberal big business-friendly ex-banker who sits in the Elysee to devise this scheme but it seems improbable that President Emmanuel Macron was simply moved by concern for the French people, a majority of whom did not vote for him.

Perhaps he is frightened that to the “gilets jaune” who mobilised against the government when he put the petrol price up might be joined once gain by the “gilets rouge” of the Confederation Generale du Travail.

We have to ask ourselves why, in the face of such broad support for public ownership and the proven value of this in dealing with the energy price crisis, Labour does not attack the Tories where they are weakest.

If Labour is not careful, whoever wins the Tory leadership will come out with a policy that is more radical than Labour’s.

It would be ridiculous if, during a massive wave of pay strikes, Labour remains committed to a minimum wage policy less generous than the Tories’ and at risk from being outflanked on the main issue which shapes the political and economic views of the British people

Just fucking go Starmer, you are fucking useless.

The last thing the left need is further dilution of the left vote with yet another party. If they spent less time being ideological snobs rather than creating a new party - they might actually get somewhere. A great example of this left snobbery is how the left always cite those who don’t hold identical views that are far enough left as [insert insult here] - your post starts with that same tried and tested philosophy. I actually agree with the notion of nationalising our core infrastructure - yet I’m one of those centrist mugs. I have historically voted Tory, I accept there is no perfect party out there for me - I don’t disagree a new party would be great but not one wedded to political ideologies but one wedded to decency and common sense. The left seem so determined to want to discuss decades old ideologies and putting people into boxes they ignore the fact that very few voters fit those boxes. It’s like an Oxford Union debating society. Carry on, it’s intriguing to watch the left tear themselves apart about how left they are whilst simultaneously insulting the centrist/left leaning electorate.

Just on this point: The French government has increased its majority stake in the national energy enterprise EDF and thus is able to shield the French people from the speculators’ global energy cartel.

The french are largely powered with nuclear power - to cap energy bills at 4% has cost them around £8bn… our intervention so far has cost over £9bn. We are where we are, the French had the good sense to opt for nuclear in the late 70s when we had the last energy crisis… we didn’t, few did. Although they now face an expensive refit/replacement cycle which will cost between £400-500bn and the French government is now acquiring that obligation on behalf of the tax payers (assuming a program of 50% renewables and 50% nuclear). Ouch.
 
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Keith should follow the Biden on route by calling the Tories extremists intent on destroying the country.

The polling would go through the roof.
 

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