Kharkiv and Ukraine

[MaineDAWG2008]

The forum is about Kharkiv and Ukraine..if you wish to discuss Osama then start a new forum..However, I will say this..the Palestinians were and are treated with total disrespect..I do not for one minute agree with with the abhorrent violence that Osama/Isis have done..but again look at the history and perhaps the influence of the West to control oil supplies in an inherently tribal area that created an environment that allowed these people to thrive. The point I am trying to make is that you can look supeficially at a problem. The Western media will portray us as the good guys, but do some research and try to understand why we may not be the good guys after all.

Top post.

 

[Grassland Blue]

The forum is about Kharkiv and Ukraine..if you wish to discuss Osama then start a new forum..However, I will say this..the Palestinians were and are treated with total disrespect..I do not for one minute agree with with the abhorrent violence that Osama/Isis have done..but again look at the history and perhaps the influence of the West to control oil supplies in an inherently tribal area that created an environment that allowed these people to thrive. The point I am trying to make is that you can look supeficially at a problem. The Western media will portray us as the good guys, but do some research and try to understand why we may not be the good guys after all.

Yes, I understand that the west is far from squeaky clean in international affairs.
My comment was not meant to take the thread in a different direction.
You mentioned the Americans funding the Bolshevik revolution and also Saddam being installed.
I think that Bin Laden is also an example of American duplicitousness in foreign policy in recent history and therefore deserved a passing mention.

 

[Berts Neck]

Came across this which is a fascinating watch.It was actually worse than I thought !!

 

[JGL07]

Please explain where it is misleading ? The USA, Britain and Germany funded the Bolsheviks. Never mentioned France.
When I said, "we" I meant the West. WE, tried to undermine the Russians for various political reasons,then when communism takes hold, they are the enemy. It has happened so many times in many countries.

But the whole sealed train business was while Russia was an ally of France and Britain in the war against Germany.

The only ones interested in funding the Bolsheviks were the German Empire. Britain certainly put troops in to help the Menchaviks in the civil war after the October Revolution.

I hope you are not basing this on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion conspiracy?

 

[Berts Neck]

But the whole sealed train business was while Russia was an ally of France and Britain in the war against Germany.

The only ones interested in funding the Bolsheviks were the German Empire. Britain certainly put troops in to help the Menchaviks in the civil war after the October Revolution.

I hope you are not basing this on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion conspiracy?

Absolutely not..just a realist who has time to study and look at both sides..Everyhing I have said is factually correct.. Indeed at the Nato Bucharest conference in 2008 Putin made it clear that he would not accept Ukraine joining Nato. Putin offered Bill Clinton the option of Russia joining Nato--rejected. Finally,when the Soviet Union collapsed, James Baker categorically stated that Nato would not expand one inch further East. Within a few years they did so.
The very sad thing about this is the enemy is not Russia,the West has broken promises-- The China/Japan conflict will be a massive issue and we will need Russia. There has to be compromise. A neutral Ukraine with Russia pulling out makes so much sense.

I will copy a comment by Goering just before he died when asked to explain the Nazi, atrocities.A very true comment.

"Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

"There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

 

[Two Gun Bob]

I understand Putins alarm.

 

[14aguero]

The language from all have stepped away from the line in the sand. All will get what they want, and Ukraine will be sacrified in quick order, I think.

 

[Berts Neck]

The language from all have stepped away from the line in the sand. All will get what they want, and Ukraine will be sacrified in quick order, I think.

I hope Ukraine will not be sacrificed..there has to be some middle ground here.. am convinced that a neutral Ukraine would make this all go away. Nato back off, Russia pulls out..it is so sad when common sense goes out of the window and matters escalate to this level. The one thing that I despise about politics is that all common sense is thrown out of the window. Frankly it is almost childish behaviour . Is diplomacy no longer a word that is used ?

 

[mat]

I understand Putins alarm.

Does it play the Russian National Anthem?

 

[14aguero]

I hope Ukraine will not be sacrificed..there has to be some middle ground here.. am convinced that a neutral Ukraine would make this all go away. Nato back off, Russia pulls out..it is so sad when common sense goes out of the window and matters escalate to this level. The one thing that I despise about politics is that all common sense is thrown out of the window. Frankly it is almost childish behaviour . Is diplomacy no longer a word that is used ?

Russia has been making a demon out of the current Ukrainian government, Nazi, nationalist, etc. US, instead of countering this claim, goes on about the commitment to the allies in generic terms, so Ukraine and NATO inclusively. Russia has stepped away from wanting an explicit veto in NATO membership and is using 'legally binding security guarantee' as the end goal. US offered a bilateral solution, excluding the vaunted allies in the process. Ukraine, initially, and the European countries are in line to be sacrified.