Kylian Mbappe

[Dax777]

Who do you think is better, Jesus or Mbappe ?

The numbers say Mbappe. And athletism also favors Mbappe. My heart says Jesus, but until there is actual performance evidence of it, i have to go with Mbappe.

 

[Dax777]

I'd be pretty confident he'd have them as a fluid front 3. Mbappé does a lot of his best work in the wide left areas anyway, and he's excellent 1v1 so starting him out there making out to in runs would make sense.

We haven't seen GJ on the wing yet, but again he's got all the skills for it. You need them to get into the box quickly from the wide areas when the ball went to the right side but the pace and movement of those two would make that pretty easy.

Probably works too. That just dooms one of Sane or Sterling. Perhaps both

 

[domalino]

Probably works too. That just dooms one of Sane or Sterling. Perhaps both

Or means a lot of rotation over the 60 games of a season. Got to remember that these young kids can't play as much as older guys either or they burn out a la Michael Owen. You can see how knackered Sané is after just 4 months of starting every game.

 

[Dax777]

Or means a lot of rotation over the 60 games of a season. Got to remember that these young kids can't play as much as older guys either or they burn out a la Michael Owen. You can see how knackered Sané is after just 4 months of starting every game.

If we do a 4 man rotation of those 3 position, it would be great. But if we also get Sanchez or Coman as being rumored, then its 5 for 3 positions and it gets a little muddy.

But would rather have that than no options of the bench

 

[Neville Kneville]

Or means a lot of rotation over the 60 games of a season. Got to remember that these young kids can't play as much as older guys either or they burn out a la Michael Owen. You can see how knackered Sané is after just 4 months of starting every game.

Jesus shouldn't be playing 90 mins.

We need more players for those positions if they are to put in the workrate Pep requires. In fact that goes for every position in the team really. Ideally two players plus a kid for each spot, fighting for the position, & sell off the ones who can't hack it.

 

[domalino]

If we do a 4 man rotation of those 3 position, it would be great. But if we also get Sanchez or Coman as being rumored, then its 5 for 3 positions and it gets a little muddy.

But would rather have that than no options of the bench

I think 5 for 3 is stretching it, but if Pep is going to just beast them through incredible amounts of pressing and running then maybe it will. The problem is that if you have 4, any injury leaves you screwed.

I think the ideal situation is 4 1/2 - basically 4 first choice players and someone like Roberts or a veteran who doesn't mind not playing but can grab their chance when they get it. That seems unlikely so maybe we'll just have to rely on Pep's man management and winning things to keep them happy. Particularly if Kun stays, then everyone will know it's a temporary thing, 1 or 2 seasons and then he's gone, and I imagine the likes of Sané, Jesus etc. could tolerate that.

 

[aguero93:20]

Are you saying young players don't understsnd the requirements of playing striker or are you saying our requirements see uniquely different?

I'm saying the all round positioning of the striker off the ball dictates the shape and positioning of the opposition defence and therefore the attack and strikers quite simply aren't as effective at this until they've got a hundred games or more under their belt. Some strikers never learn to do it.

It's easier in a two as individual position is half as important and defenders have twice as much to keep track of, plus you can combine strengths to provide a greater threat.

And why can't GJ or Mbappe "stretch or harass" defenders constitently? Are you saying this is a skill that is unique to age and experience?

And what makes Falcao great at leading the line? He sure doesn't harass or stretch anyone?

I'm sure one of them can in a two to allow the other greater space, similar to the Germain/Mbappe dynamic at Monaco, I doubt either could consistently do it on their own.

Falcao's strength, anticipation and first touch make him a great hold up player, if you'd actually read what I wrote you'd notice I wasn't crediting him with harassing anyone. He's well able to stretch a defense though. Yet, Falcao has never shown any ability to lead the line on his own, he's always played in a two.

The point in making here is simple. Different players lead the line in different ways. There is no one way to do it. Some harass, some stretch, some hang on the last defenders defender's back, others hold up long punted balls etc etc.

Simply put, you play to your strength. Clearly GJ and KML have some strengths or else they wouldn't be phenom at their ages. I reckon those strengths, whatever they are, is what they'll lead the line with.

Right now all that Mbappe has shown is the ability to play off another striker with some good runs so I'm struggling to see where you're pulling his supposed strengths at leading the line from. Jesus has shown ability in a few games at playing a false 9 role but his greater strengths have been shown on the left where he's had the majority of game time, or playing in a two with Sergio or Neymar picking up the slack. Guardiola might have seen something in training that gives him a different opinion, but you're just taking a leap of faith and trying to pass it off as fact, pretty strange for someone so devoted to statistical measurement.

 

[Dax777]

I'm saying the all round positioning of the striker off the ball dictates the shape and positioning of the opposition defence and therefore the attack and strikers quite simply aren't as effective at this until they've got a hundred games or more under their belt. Some strikers never learn to do it.

It's easier in a two as individual position is half as important and defenders have twice as much to keep track of, plus you can combine strengths to provide a greater threat.

I'm sure one of them can in a two to allow the other greater space, similar to the Germain/Mbappe dynamic at Monaco, I doubt either could consistently do it on their own.

Falcao's strength, anticipation and first touch make him a great hold up player, if you'd actually read what I wrote you'd notice I wasn't crediting him with harassing anyone. He's well able to stretch a defense though. Yet, Falcao has never shown any ability to lead the line on his own, he's always played in a two.



Right now all that Mbappe has shown is the ability to play off another striker with some good runs so I'm struggling to see where you're pulling his supposed strengths at leading the line from. Jesus has shown ability in a few games at playing a false 9 role but his greater strengths have been shown on the left where he's had the majority of game time, or playing in a two with Sergio or Neymar picking up the slack. Guardiola might have seen something in training that gives him a different opinion, but you're just taking a leap of faith and trying to pass it off as fact, pretty strange for someone so devoted to statistical measurement.

The point about Falcao not harnessing is to show there isn't one way to lead the line. I think I said as much. Perhaps you are the one not reading my comments :)

Your comments about the effectiveness of a player leading the line is misleading. Yes, player improve with more games played. Experience increases automated responses, sure. But all players don't start at the same point. GK and Mbappe are already better than many strikers who've heard multiple years and lots of games of practice.

Yes they will get better, but their starting points are miles ahead of their contemporaries and seniors. There is a reason why 1 has been named starter of his national team and the other has scored more goals at his age than any super talent in recent memory.

It seems you agree both players can lead the line together. So this is a bit moot. As that was my point initially. And from the little evidence we have of both, they already show superior understanding of movement and spatial awareness.

You are right on one thing though, I am projecting based on what I've seen. Seeing as they haven't been playing professionally that long, I can only project based on the limited evidence we have of both.

But you are wrong about Falcao never leading the line by himself (and by that I take it you mean being the line striker) he was at Porto. And was banned good at it.

 

[aguero93:20]

The point about Falcao not harnessing is to show there isn't one way to lead the line. I think I said as much. Perhaps you are the one not reading my comments :)

Your comments about the effectiveness of a player leading the line is misleading. Yes, player improve with more games played. Experience increases automated responses, sure. But all players don't start at the same point. GK and Mbappe are already better than many strikers who've heard multiple years and lots of games of practice.

They're better than poor or mediocre strikers, that doesn't mean they're at the level required to do it on their own for us.

It seems you agree both players can lead the line together. So this is a bit moot.

Yes, it is. We're not going to fuck out Sterling, Sané, De Bruyne and Silva to play 3-5-2 and Guardiola isn't going to sacrifice control in midfield to play a 4-4-2. A completely moot point.

But you are wrong about Falcao never leading the line by himself (and by that I take it you mean being the line striker) he was at Porto. And was banned good at it.

He played in very much a front 3 there with Varela/Hulk/James and was still fairly useless in his few appearances at CL level. Doing it in the EL and Liga Sagres and doing it in the Premier League and Champions League are two different things. Flopped at Chelsea and the Rags when asked to play as a lone striker ahead of 5 actual mids at a high level, although I'd give him some leeway due to his knee injury at Monaco.

Yes they will get better, but their starting points are miles ahead of their contemporaries and seniors. There is a reason why 1 has been named starter of his national team and the other has scored more goals at his age than any super talent in recent memory.

Being miles ahead at a respective age of a bunch of strikers that aren't really at the top level doesn't mean they can carry the goalscoring hopes of a team hoping to win the Champions League as 19/20 year olds.
Messi wasn't expected to do it (Henry, Villa, Eto'o).
Tranny wasn't expected to do it (Van Nistelrooy, Saha, Shrek)
Ronaldo was playing as part of a two with multiple strikers.
Ibrahimovic played as part of a two with Del Piero, Trezeguet etc
Aguero played with Forlan.
Aubameyang was a right winger.
Shearer played with Sutton.
Adriano played in a 2.
As did Raul.
As did Torres.
As did Owen.
Batistuta? 2.
Vieri? 2.
Shrek? Off a frontman or left of a three.


All players who, hype aside, were considered good enough to be part of Champions League winning teams at a very young age. If you can think of one case where a top club (genuine CL contender) have trusted an u21 to lead the line on their own come back to me.

 

[Yates]

They're better than poor or mediocre strikers, that doesn't mean they're at the level required to do it on their own for us.

Yes, it is. We're not going to fuck out Sterling, Sané, De Bruyne and Silva to play 3-5-2 and Guardiola isn't going to sacrifice control in midfield to play a 4-4-2. A completely moot point.

He played in very much a front 3 there with Varela/Hulk/James and was still fairly useless in his few appearances at CL level. Doing it in the EL and Liga Sagres and doing it in the Premier League and Champions League are two different things. Flopped at Chelsea and the Rags when asked to play as a lone striker ahead of 5 actual mids at a high level, although I'd give him some leeway due to his knee injury at Monaco.

Being miles ahead at a respective age of a bunch of strikers that aren't really at the top level doesn't mean they can carry the goalscoring hopes of a team hoping to win the Champions League as 19/20 year olds.
Messi wasn't expected to do it (Henry, Villa, Eto'o).
Tranny wasn't expected to do it (Van Nistelrooy, Saha, Shrek)
Ronaldo was playing as part of a two with multiple strikers.
Ibrahimovic played as part of a two with Del Piero, Trezeguet etc
Aguero played with Forlan.
Aubameyang was a right winger.
Shearer played with Sutton.
Adriano played in a 2.
As did Raul.
As did Torres.
As did Owen.
Batistuta? 2.
Vieri? 2.
Shrek? Off a frontman or left of a three.


All players who, hype aside, were considered good enough to be part of Champions League winning teams at a very young age. If you can think of one case where a top club (genuine CL contender) have trusted an u21 to lead the line on their own come back to me.

You do make a solid point but Ronaldo ( Brazilian ) was the #1 goalscorer at every club at a young age. Mbappe/Jesus would be supplemented like he was. Not saying these guys are as good as Ronaldo was but they aren't far off. I mean Mbappe's numbers match up.