In the last three derbies there have been three sendings off. All of these potentially influenced the outcome of three huge games. 2 for them and one for us.Chippy_boy said:Exeter Blue I am here said:hgblue said:Bit naive this Dave. If a person chooses a career in refereeing then you can bet your life that they have an interest in football and grew up liking/disliking particular teams. I'd be amazed if some of our Premiership referees didn't grow up supporting United, and I can understand the temptation for them to conceal this fact, maybe not for the purposes of cheating per se, but because they don't want to preclude themselves from refereeing the high profile games. The question is, are they able to ignore past allegiances and referee games impartially, or are they tempted to 'tweak' their decisions to favour United and penalise their title rivals? If you're correct and the answer is the former, then I applaud their self control and professionalism, but if the answer is the latter then I fail to see how you could possibly prove it? They're hardly likely to shout about it are they?
This
And if everything is as above board as Dave claims, how does he explain the ridiculous pro-united refereeing decisions that we see week-in, week-out at the swamp.
It's got so bad that everyone expects it and we hardly notice. The constant refereeing howlers go largely unreported. The only time we do notice is when - once in a blue moon - the game is actually straight at their place. Rarely happens I know. When it does SAF and his cronies complain vehemently. The playing field at their place is so ridiculously slanted they can't even see it. That idiot Shrek goes around kicking, stomping, swearing, abusing and "it's OK because it's Wayne". Utter utter filth the lot of them.
Didsbury Dave said:In the last three derbies there have been three sendings off. All of these potentially influenced the outcome of three huge games. 2 for them and one for us.Chippy_boy said:Exeter Blue I am here said:This
And if everything is as above board as Dave claims, how does he explain the ridiculous pro-united refereeing decisions that we see week-in, week-out at the swamp.
It's got so bad that everyone expects it and we hardly notice. The constant refereeing howlers go largely unreported. The only time we do notice is when - once in a blue moon - the game is actually straight at their place. Rarely happens I know. When it does SAF and his cronies complain vehemently. The playing field at their place is so ridiculously slanted they can't even see it. That idiot Shrek goes around kicking, stomping, swearing, abusing and "it's OK because it's Wayne". Utter utter filth the lot of them.
How do you explain that?
The organisation that manages the professional officials is PGMO (Professional Game Match Officials Ltd). PGMO consists of a select group who officiate in all Premier League and some Football League matches as well as a national list who officiate in Football League matches.
PGMO monitors, trains and develops all of its officials and also appoints officials to matches.
The development of referees at grassroots and amateur level falls under the remit of the Football Association.
The appointment of match officials for matches is traditionally announced each Monday with 19 referees available to officiate 10 Premier League matches and six selected Football League matches. The appointments are made by the Professional Game Match Officials Board (PGMOB). When making the appointments, a number of factors are taken into account including:
- The current form of the official
- The referee’s position in the merit table
- Overall experience
- How often they have refereed the Clubs involved
- Proximity to the ground or city in which they were born or live
- The team the referee supports
- International appointments (For example if referees have UEFA matches on Thursdays they will only be available for matches on Sundays or Mondays)
Didsbury Dave said:In the last three derbies there have been three sendings off. All of these potentially influenced the outcome of three huge games. 2 for them and one for us.Chippy_boy said:Exeter Blue I am here said:This
And if everything is as above board as Dave claims, how does he explain the ridiculous pro-united refereeing decisions that we see week-in, week-out at the swamp.
It's got so bad that everyone expects it and we hardly notice. The constant refereeing howlers go largely unreported. The only time we do notice is when - once in a blue moon - the game is actually straight at their place. Rarely happens I know. When it does SAF and his cronies complain vehemently. The playing field at their place is so ridiculously slanted they can't even see it. That idiot Shrek goes around kicking, stomping, swearing, abusing and "it's OK because it's Wayne". Utter utter filth the lot of them.
How do you explain that?
and for an organisation run by murdoch which has hacked people's phones then the fixing of games would not even bother this man in the slightest...mancunial said:If it was not bent vinnie would never have walked, that said it all to me, it was the most bent decision that has happened for years, also the movement of Walton abroad makes me even more suspicious, Riley should have been sacked after the two penalty decisions at Trafford in the last two games, the game is at an all time low morally, murdochs tv has a lot to answer for.
strongbowholic said:Sorry for the long post (may have been better as a blog?)
One of the difficulties for me is the distinct lack of transparency with refereeing. They are 'governed' by PGMO Ltd and the figurehead is Mike Riley. They are described thus the Premier League official website:
The organisation that manages the professional officials is PGMO (Professional Game Match Officials Ltd). PGMO consists of a select group who officiate in all Premier League and some Football League matches as well as a national list who officiate in Football League matches.
PGMO monitors, trains and develops all of its officials and also appoints officials to matches.
The development of referees at grassroots and amateur level falls under the remit of the Football Association.
The site goes further to explain how refs are selected:
The appointment of match officials for matches is traditionally announced each Monday with 19 referees available to officiate 10 Premier League matches and six selected Football League matches. The appointments are made by the Professional Game Match Officials Board (PGMOB). When making the appointments, a number of factors are taken into account including:
- The current form of the official
- The referee’s position in the merit table
- Overall experience
- How often they have refereed the Clubs involved
- Proximity to the ground or city in which they were born or live
- The team the referee supports
- International appointments (For example if referees have UEFA matches on Thursdays they will only be available for matches on Sundays or Mondays)
A cursory google leads us to find the Directors of PGMO are:
Andrew Godfrey Williamson
Michael Foster
Jonathan Patrick Bracebridge Hall
Peter James Heard
We can see they are involved in/have been involved in the following companies:
ANNE FOSTER LIMITED
ARCHDALE PROPERTIES LIMITED
BADMINTON INVESTMENT LIMITED
CCSL NEWCO LIMITED
CHURSTON HEARD LIMITED
COLCHESTER UNITED FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED
ENGLAND 2007 LIMITED
ENGLAND RUGBY LIMITED
FOOTBALL ASSOCIATION LIMITED
FOOTBALL LEAGUE LIMITED(THE)
FOOTBALLERS FURTHER EDUCATION AND VOCATIONAL TRAINING SOCIETY LIMITED
KICK IT OUT
LEAGUE FOOTBALL EDUCATION
LFE SPORTS DEVELOPMENT LIMITED
NATIONAL FOOTBALL CENTRE LIMITED
NO. 22 ELVASTON PLACE RESIDENTS ASSOCIATION LIMITED
PUTTING RUGBY FIRST LIMITED
RUGBY CARE LIMITED
RUGBY REFLINK LIMITED
RUGBY WORLD NATIONS CUP LIMITED
RUGBY WORLD NATIONS TOURNAMENT LIMITED
RUSHPLAN (COLCHESTER) LIMITED
SPORTS LINK (UK) LIMITED
THE FOOTBALL ASSOCIATION PREMIER LEAGUE LIMITED
THE FOOTBALL ASSOCIATION PREMIER LEAGUE MEDICAL CARE SCHEME LIMITED
THE FOOTBALL FOUNDATION
THE FOOTBALL LEAGUE (COMMUNITY) LIMITED
THE FOOTBALL LEAGUE TRUST LIMITED
THE FOOTBALL STADIA IMPROVEMENT FUND LIMITED
TWICKENHAM EXPERIENCE LTD
WEMBLEY NATIONAL STADIUM LIMITED
WORLD-WIDE SOCCER LIMITED
PGMO Ltd publish accounts as you would expect and a couple of headline items from those include:
£0.16m Cash at Bank
£0.20m Net Worth
£3.30m Total Current Liabilities
£3.30m Total Current Assets
£7.00m Turnover
£2.60m Salaries
Interesting amounts of money involved if you ask me considering we're talking of referees!
You can also find (here - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.isrscork.com/newsisr4.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.isrscork.com/newsisr4.htm</a> ) a copy of the 2007/2008 Directives given to Elite Referees by PGMO (worth a read).
Bizarrely, what you CANNOT find is who are the members of the panel/board who select referees?
Or the referees' merit table.
They don't even have a functional website.
This lack of info/transparency only contributes to accusations of foul play and conspiracy in my opinion. How can a body of people be trusted when they 'are not allowed' to talk to the press afterwards to explain decisions, when they are seemingly 'not allowed' to admit mistakes, when they are seemingly backed to the hilt - sorry to use Mason again, but the Derry red card?
Whilst there is no transparency, and judging by their accounts they are a 'for profit' organisation, these accusations will not subside.
A simple model for them going forward ought to be:
- not for profit organisation
- salaried employees earning the going rate for whatever positions are deemed as required run the organisation
- each league club pays a % each season to cover costs of running that organisation
- fully published list of referees
- fully published methodology of selection of referees
- fully published list of any members of a panel or board involved in the selection of referees for any match
- environment where a referee is allowed to admit mistakes without fear and is helped to learn from that mistake
- commission to review any instance of perceived bias (as in what the OPs statistical analysis seems to point to)
- continued investment in grass roots referees
etc
I know that is probably idealism gone mad, but it is bloody frustrating information that should be in the public domain is kept hidden.
I'd like him to dig a little deeper.Exeter Blue I am here said:strongbowholic said:Sorry for the long post (may have been better as a blog?)
One of the difficulties for me is the distinct lack of transparency with refereeing. They are 'governed' by PGMO Ltd and the figurehead is Mike Riley. They are described thus the Premier League official website:
The organisation that manages the professional officials is PGMO (Professional Game Match Officials Ltd). PGMO consists of a select group who officiate in all Premier League and some Football League matches as well as a national list who officiate in Football League matches.
PGMO monitors, trains and develops all of its officials and also appoints officials to matches.
The development of referees at grassroots and amateur level falls under the remit of the Football Association.
The site goes further to explain how refs are selected:
The appointment of match officials for matches is traditionally announced each Monday with 19 referees available to officiate 10 Premier League matches and six selected Football League matches. The appointments are made by the Professional Game Match Officials Board (PGMOB). When making the appointments, a number of factors are taken into account including:
- The current form of the official
- The referee’s position in the merit table
- Overall experience
- How often they have refereed the Clubs involved
- Proximity to the ground or city in which they were born or live
- The team the referee supports
- International appointments (For example if referees have UEFA matches on Thursdays they will only be available for matches on Sundays or Mondays)
A cursory google leads us to find the Directors of PGMO are:
Andrew Godfrey Williamson
Michael Foster
Jonathan Patrick Bracebridge Hall
Peter James Heard
We can see they are involved in/have been involved in the following companies:
ANNE FOSTER LIMITED
ARCHDALE PROPERTIES LIMITED
BADMINTON INVESTMENT LIMITED
CCSL NEWCO LIMITED
CHURSTON HEARD LIMITED
COLCHESTER UNITED FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED
ENGLAND 2007 LIMITED
ENGLAND RUGBY LIMITED
FOOTBALL ASSOCIATION LIMITED
FOOTBALL LEAGUE LIMITED(THE)
FOOTBALLERS FURTHER EDUCATION AND VOCATIONAL TRAINING SOCIETY LIMITED
KICK IT OUT
LEAGUE FOOTBALL EDUCATION
LFE SPORTS DEVELOPMENT LIMITED
NATIONAL FOOTBALL CENTRE LIMITED
NO. 22 ELVASTON PLACE RESIDENTS ASSOCIATION LIMITED
PUTTING RUGBY FIRST LIMITED
RUGBY CARE LIMITED
RUGBY REFLINK LIMITED
RUGBY WORLD NATIONS CUP LIMITED
RUGBY WORLD NATIONS TOURNAMENT LIMITED
RUSHPLAN (COLCHESTER) LIMITED
SPORTS LINK (UK) LIMITED
THE FOOTBALL ASSOCIATION PREMIER LEAGUE LIMITED
THE FOOTBALL ASSOCIATION PREMIER LEAGUE MEDICAL CARE SCHEME LIMITED
THE FOOTBALL FOUNDATION
THE FOOTBALL LEAGUE (COMMUNITY) LIMITED
THE FOOTBALL LEAGUE TRUST LIMITED
THE FOOTBALL STADIA IMPROVEMENT FUND LIMITED
TWICKENHAM EXPERIENCE LTD
WEMBLEY NATIONAL STADIUM LIMITED
WORLD-WIDE SOCCER LIMITED
PGMO Ltd publish accounts as you would expect and a couple of headline items from those include:
£0.16m Cash at Bank
£0.20m Net Worth
£3.30m Total Current Liabilities
£3.30m Total Current Assets
£7.00m Turnover
£2.60m Salaries
Interesting amounts of money involved if you ask me considering we're talking of referees!
You can also find (here - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.isrscork.com/newsisr4.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.isrscork.com/newsisr4.htm</a> ) a copy of the 2007/2008 Directives given to Elite Referees by PGMO (worth a read).
Bizarrely, what you CANNOT find is who are the members of the panel/board who select referees?
Or the referees' merit table.
They don't even have a functional website.
This lack of info/transparency only contributes to accusations of foul play and conspiracy in my opinion. How can a body of people be trusted when they 'are not allowed' to talk to the press afterwards to explain decisions, when they are seemingly 'not allowed' to admit mistakes, when they are seemingly backed to the hilt - sorry to use Mason again, but the Derry red card?
Whilst there is no transparency, and judging by their accounts they are a 'for profit' organisation, these accusations will not subside.
A simple model for them going forward ought to be:
- not for profit organisation
- salaried employees earning the going rate for whatever positions are deemed as required run the organisation
- each league club pays a % each season to cover costs of running that organisation
- fully published list of referees
- fully published methodology of selection of referees
- fully published list of any members of a panel or board involved in the selection of referees for any match
- environment where a referee is allowed to admit mistakes without fear and is helped to learn from that mistake
- commission to review any instance of perceived bias (as in what the OPs statistical analysis seems to point to)
- continued investment in grass roots referees
etc
I know that is probably idealism gone mad, but it is bloody frustrating information that should be in the public domain is kept hidden.
Blimey. Good post. Interesting