Libya (Merged)

[nijinsky's fetlocks]

Of course you can ask,as we live in a democracy,apparently.
Which also gives me the right not to reply,as it is none of your fucking business,and not pertinent to this thread.

I shall have to draw my own conclusions then...

Traffic warden springs to mind.

Draw away, my misguided friend.
If your speculations are up to your usual levels of accuracy,I expect you to deduce my occupation sometime in 2025.
I personally couldn't give a flying one what another poster does for a living.
Have you ever considered taking up a hobby?

 

[ElanJo]

It's posts like this one below that make it difficult to want to read others. However, if I remember correctly, I thought a few of your posts, a few months ago, about economics, were good.



-- Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:33 pm --



These actions would only be mistakes of the past if they were stopped in the present.

But that's not what I said anyway.

If your reason for wanting Gaddafi out is a moral one - the injustice suffered by the population - then you should equally be against funding, supporting and/or installing "Gaddafis" elsewhere. If you're not, you're argument can not, and should not, be taken seriously.

My personal belief would involve a utopian world where no-one needs nor has the inclination to attack another nation. Sadly that is completely unrealistic. The unfortunate fact is that there are countries with bastards like Gadaffi in charge and while it is not the UN's mission in this instance to enforce regime change, should that happen, I wont shed any tears, just like I didn't when that bastard Saddam swung and I won't should the people of North Korea, Iran and the leaders of countless other corrupt repressive and abusive regimes across the globe come to grief.

But we can't keep trawling over past mistakes made, to justify inaction, not when there are millions of lives at stake. I stand by a comment I made earlier. Benghazi is and has been for sometime a hotbed of opposition to Gadaffi. Up until recently his secret police have been able to keep a lid on it, but that lid blew off with some effect. If he had taken the chance to take Benghazi back the population he left in that city would have been much reduced.

I don't agree with US/UK 'installing' puppet governments, and I'm not entirely sure there is outright evidence that we have done so recently. The elections in both Iraq and Afghanistan were independent, and crucially, overseen by electoral commisions outside the jurisdiction of the US/UK. There were corruptions but it is by the main agreed that these were on the part of the very element of rottenness we have sought or assisted with the removal of.

Utopian notions have nothing to do with this.

"....we can't keep trawling over past mistakes made, to justify inaction..."

Again, I don't know how to be more clear, this is not at all what I am saying.

 

[cyberblue]

When did the west ever bother about civilians being slaughtered ?.Inocent civilians are being slaughtered now in loads of countries run by tin pot dictators but the west in doing nothing about them why do think we are interested in Lyba ? maybee because so many western firms have got billions of pounds of investment there

Your'e not listening cyber, Ive already adressed this earlier, maybe its because many nations including fellow arab league states sought and received UN resolutions to prevent said slaughter. And once again, can I ask you what you're understanding of the phrase overstretching you're resources is. Some of you "its all about the oil" brigade make me laugh, For once get off you're high horse and give the dastardly west some credit. Benghazi has been saved from becoming another Rwanda/Srebrenica/Cambodia/Darfur, and all you can do is claim that we wouldn't be there if it wasn't for the oil. Makes me sick, would you be happier if we hadn't gone in, because sometime in the next few days you're television news bulletins would have been full of images of the horrors that man is capable of. Does that sit easy with you?

-- Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:24 pm --

When did the west ever bother about civilians being slaughtered ?.Inocent civilians are being slaughtered now in loads of countries run by tin pot dictators but the west in doing nothing about them why do think we are interested in Lyba ? maybee because so many western firms have got billions of pounds of investment there

-- Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:12 pm --

.my consistent point is that we are hypocritical in the wars we fight .i have no love for Gaddaffi or the other tin pot dictators armed .financed & supported by the west .i just want to no why, out of the dozens of countries commiting atrocities on there own people we decide to sick our nose in Lyba,your point about Denmark & Qatar wow they are going to make a great difference .the war in Lyba is a concern to us but we aint the worlds policmen & for every cruise missile we fire we could afford to stop making health workers redundant

The point about Denmark and Qatar is in reply to you're insistence this is another US/UK military intervention. You are aware that LYbIa is on Europes doorstep and a former UK colony. Many times have the UK intervened in former colonies to prevent civilian casualties, not just in the case of civil strife but also in instances of natural disaster, and I'm afraid when you sit on the UN security council you do effectively become a 'world policeman'. Of course many many of us would prefer for our taxes to be spent on our own infrastructures however while there are people like Gadaffi/Ahmedinajad/Jong Il in this world your nirvana is naive.

I might be many things but one thing i am not is naive .we are a bankrubt country but are well able to spend millions on a war that other countries wont get involved in but are shutting hospitals ect .up untill 4 weeks ago Gadaffi was our best mate .Saddam Hussein was our pall to for many years ..if we are concerned about dictators killing there own people fu*k me we would be bombing a couple of dozen countries tomorrow

 

[talkativesprout]

Forget what you read in the papers about us kissing and making up, waiting for the chance to get rid of this despot. Mother England has a long memory, and serves revenge cold.

 

[PJMCC1UK]

But we got involved in WW2. For the most part Hitler took land through threats. And he was welcomed by many. Yes it wasn't right but we stood back and allowed it for a while. What interests did we have to get involved? Poland doesn't have oil.

Funny how you try and mock my responses when you still haven't proven we are specifically attacking civilians as you previously posted.
So lets try and keep it a discussion. To many people go to the patronising route.

I never said I had proof Gadaffi has links to terrorism. I said it wouldn't surprise me. And hell yeah Adams should be gone by now. And we should have done with Saddam in 91. A mistake we are paying for now.

I approve of action that will protect a people. Do you have proof that the Muslim world. Which so far has backed what we are doing will use it against us. Or is this just speculation. If we get involved deeper it may. I agree. But if we left those people to die they could take the view that we stood idly by and hate us for that.
Yes it is a vicious circle. We may repeat mistakes but it doesn't mean this is one of them.

As for picking and choosing, did we really. How many other countries have seen fit to ask for UN assistance. If they don't we won't.

For Lebanon. In the same way I shouldn't assume we disagree on all points nor should you. I think if Israel bomb civilians then they should be held accountable. Not necessarily bombed. I never said we can go round bombing everyone. But what they have done has been wrong and it's wrong to stand by.

I'm sorry mate, but I just can't take you seriously.

Your knowledge of world events is so lacking I think I'll pass on any further comments.... and your reluctance to engage in even-handedness for all people's is not something I can go along with any further.

I ask you not to go down the patronising route and lo and behold your next post is just that and nothing else.
Sad really. I was having a decent discussion and you have to now ignore my points.

Where exactly is my reluctance to get engage in even handedness???

I have said and will continue to say all post that the Libyans themselves asked for this assistance. And only the assistance of protecting the civilians at risk so we are. If they had been asked to be left alone then there is nothing we could do despite the massacre.
Can you tell me which other rebel factions etc have asked for assistance?
You make the statement that we can't go bombing everyone willy nilly. I agree. But if a people who fear being completely massacred ask for UN protection then we should help.

And show me the error of my ways then on worldly goings on. We got involved in WW2 to honour a pact with Poland. Poland doesn't have oil. How did we do it purely for our own interests?
Or is it the asking of proof of muslims disliking us for our current actions. Some will. You can never please everyone. But I believe more will hate us for standing by and allowing a whole City to die.

 

[ifwecouldjust......]

I'm sorry mate, but I just can't take you seriously.

Your knowledge of world events is so lacking I think I'll pass on any further comments.... and your reluctance to engage in even-handedness for all people's is not something I can go along with any further.

I ask you not to go down the patronising route and lo and behold your next post is just that and nothing else.
Sad really. I was having a decent discussion and you have to now ignore my points.

Where exactly is my reluctance to get engage in even handedness???

I have said and will continue to say all post that the Libyans themselves asked for this assistance. And only the assistance of protecting the civilians at risk so we are. If they had been asked to be left alone then there is nothing we could do despite the massacre.
Can you tell me which other rebel factions etc have asked for assistance?
You make the statement that we can't go bombing everyone willy nilly. I agree. But if a people who fear being completely massacred ask for UN protection then we should help.

And show me the error of my ways then on worldly goings on. We got involved in WW2 to honour a pact with Poland. Poland doesn't have oil. How did we do it purely for our own interests?
Or is it the asking of proof of muslims disliking us for our current actions. Some will. You can never please everyone. But I believe more will hate us for standing by and allowing a whole City to die.

MMM............Didn't see us getting involved in Burma when the people pleaded for assistance or Rwanda


Wonder Why............................

 

[cyberblue]

Lets face facts there is a civil war now going on in Libya & the west is taking sides & providing air cover for the anti Gadaffi faction .it is only going to end in tears just like every othe rtime we poke our noses in places where we shouldnt

 

[Jackson-ctid]

I ask you not to go down the patronising route and lo and behold your next post is just that and nothing else.
Sad really. I was having a decent discussion and you have to now ignore my points.

Where exactly is my reluctance to get engage in even handedness???

I have said and will continue to say all post that the Libyans themselves asked for this assistance. And only the assistance of protecting the civilians at risk so we are. If they had been asked to be left alone then there is nothing we could do despite the massacre.
Can you tell me which other rebel factions etc have asked for assistance?
You make the statement that we can't go bombing everyone willy nilly. I agree. But if a people who fear being completely massacred ask for UN protection then we should help.

And show me the error of my ways then on worldly goings on. We got involved in WW2 to honour a pact with Poland. Poland doesn't have oil. How did we do it purely for our own interests?
Or is it the asking of proof of muslims disliking us for our current actions. Some will. You can never please everyone. But I believe more will hate us for standing by and allowing a whole City to die.

MMM............Didn't see us getting involved in Burma when the people pleaded for assistance or Rwanda


Wonder Why............................

Because our country doesn't have significant investment in the country. Who gives a fuck if we're doing this mainly because of the economic shortfalls a protracted civil war has on the UK. We're still saving civillians and killing the bad guys.

Quick to complain about the economy being a state and how much it costs you to fill your car but quick to judge when the government does something to protect our overseas investment and overall, our countries economy.

Let's look at the disadvantages of being in Libya:
[*] Some civilians will die at the hands of our air strikes
[*] We're spending money on yet another war
[*] We're in the middle east again, killing muslims

and the advantages:
[*] We are aiding the process of ousting an evil dictator who harbours terrorism and massacres innocent civlians
[*] We're protecting British investment in foreign countries and our oil interests
[*] We're gaining favour with other Arab nations(Lebanon, Qatar, UAE, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Tunisia


Advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.

 

[SWP's back]

Lets face facts there is a civil war now going on in Libya & the west is taking sides & providing air cover for the anti Gadaffi faction .it is only going to end in tears just like every othe rtime we poke our noses in places where we shouldnt

Such as the UN in Yougoslavia.

And El Salvidor

And Mozambique

oh hang on

So may I ask if you feel Gadaffi should be allowed to go on and commit genocide against the rebels? In your opinion.

 

[PJMCC1UK]

MMM............Didn't see us getting involved in Burma when the people pleaded for assistance or Rwanda


Wonder Why............................

Something we regret and have openly regretted. Rwanda was a huge mistake. We're now getting involved and people complain still.
Zimbabwe has masses of resources we could benefit from. We haven't just gone in though. So we don't do it without UN approval this time. Trying to do things differently this time seems to go totally over peoples heads.