Lionel Messi

[Phil1]

I would say that award was given to him for the same reason I think he is likely to win the Ballon d’Or despite having a pretty middling season compared to previous years where he has lost out on it (and compared to half our squad): sentimentality.

He doesn’t deserve the Ballon d’Or in my eyes personally but he was certainly worthy of his WC award. You could make arguments for others of course but he was up there with the best of the best.

 

[ali benarbia's studs]

I had to look up inter miami firm on YT for a laugh. They are embarrassing....

 

[SebastianBlue]

A still hilarious example of what I have been talking about in the thread.

Media gonna media.

 

[HelloCity]

I would say that award was given to him for the same reason I think he is likely to win the Ballon d’Or despite having a pretty middling season compared to previous years where he has lost out on it (and compared to half our squad): sentimentality.

The ballon d'or maybe but definitely not the world cup. Argentina would have been an average side without him.

He was Argentina's best player in almost every match, scored in every round, and the fact he was able to pull off such performances at that age that consistently is arguably something we've not seen before at that level.

 

[SebastianBlue]

The ballon d'or maybe but definitely not the world cup. Argentina would have been an average side without him.

He was Argentina's best player in almost every match, scored in every round, and the fact he was able to pull off such performances at that age that consistently is arguably something we've not seen before at that level.

Not sure I agree he was Argentina’s best player in almost every match, nor that he was the most important. Four of the goals he scored (including three single goals in each round) were penalties (some of them dubious), and there is a strong case to be made that—sky blue specs off—Alvarez or Martinez were as or more important to Argentina’s triumphant campaign.

I think your point about his age lends to my contention the perception of his performance in the tournament as “Herculean” was largely sentimental.

 

[HelloCity]

Not sure I agree he was Argentina’s best player in almost every match, nor that he was the most important. Four of the goals he scored (including three single goals in each round) were penalties (some of them dubious), and there is a strong case to be made that—sky blue specs off—Alvarez or Martinez were as or more important to Argentina’s triumphant campaign.

I think your point about his age lends to my contention the perception of his performance in the tournament as “Herculean” was largely sentimental.

I think you’d be in an extreme minority with this view.

He dictated play and and was their key playmaker as well as goal scorer. Several of the goals came from runs, passes or shots only he himself could have made. The strike against Mexico and the pass against the Netherlands being absolute word class.

Like I say, without Messi they’d have been an average team. He was the difference. Saying Alvarez had a better World Cup than Messi is the definition of blue specs on, not blue specs off. Important to point out they also won the Copa America in the same fashion and without Alvarez playing regular.

 

[supercity88]

Not sure I agree he was Argentina’s best player in almost every match, nor that he was the most important. Four of the goals he scored (including three single goals in each round) were penalties (some of them dubious), and there is a strong case to be made that—sky blue specs off—Alvarez or Martinez were as or more important to Argentina’s triumphant campaign.

I think your point about his age lends to my contention the perception of his performance in the tournament as “Herculean” was largely sentimental.

You still have to go and score those penalties (ask Kane). Argentina's improvement was based on the manager picking a team that did everything to ensure Messi could create and score goals. They did his running, his dirty work and ensured he was free to do what he's best at. It was certainly a team effort, but he was instrumental and definitely their most important player. Without him they'd have been like Morocco or Croatia. Successful, and in the latter stages, but lacking that final element to take them to glory. There was definitely a circus around him winning it, and overplaying his role at times. But he was definitely their most important player. Without Messi the opposition can deal with the other players.

Much like how we worried about Mbappe in our game with France, only for Griezmann to profit. The other players benefit from Messi being the main threat. And even then, no one could stop him!

 

[TinFoilHat]

I'm calling it.

By hook or by crook Inter Miami will be representing the USA in the new format Club World Cup being hosted in the USA....

 

[SebastianBlue]

I think you’d be in an extreme minority with this view.

He dictated play and and was their key playmaker as well as goal scorer. Several of the goals came from runs, passes or shots only he himself could have made. The strike against Mexico and the pass against the Netherlands being absolute word class.

Like I say, without Messi they’d have been an average team. He was the difference. Saying Alvarez had a better World Cup than Messi is the definition of blue specs on, not blue specs off. Important to point out they also won the Copa America in the same fashion and without Alvarez playing regular.

I am comfortable being in the non-blinkered extreme minority. ;-)

I definitely didn’t see him dictating play in every match as you apparently did (I watched every match and I think that is a bit of revisionist history after they won the tournament). Definitely in a few, I agree, but not consistently throughout. Once more, the entire team was built and performed so he could roam and have basically no responsibilities other than creating and scoring, making things much more difficult for them (hence the Saudi, Poland, Australia, and Netherlands matches).

And Alvarez’s goals (no dubious penalties) helped them past Poland in the final group match (vital, given they lost their opener against Saudi), his individual brilliance ultimately won their Round of 16 game against Australia, and he was instrumental in putting Croatia away in the Semi-final (Messi assisted both, but without Alvarez, neither goal is scored).

Martinez saved Argentina on numerous occasions throughout the tournament, which was vital, given Messi often left Argentina open at the back, as every other player was there to make up for playing a man down in defence. That included making a final winning save at the death.

And don’t the think 2021 Copa America is especially relevant to the 2022 World Cup, but I appreciate your general point. That was an accomplishment.

You still have to go and score those penalties (ask Kane). Argentina's improvement was based on the manager picking a team that did everything to ensure Messi could create and score goals. They did his running, his dirty work and ensured he was free to do what he's best at. It was certainly a team effort, but he was instrumental and definitely their most important player. Without him they'd have been like Morocco or Croatia. Successful, and in the latter stages, but lacking that final element to take them to glory. There was definitely a circus around him winning it, and overplaying his role at times. But he was definitely their most important player. Without Messi the opposition can deal with the other players.

Much like how we worried about Mbappe in our game with France, only for Griezmann to profit. The other players benefit from Messi being the main threat. And even then, no one could stop him!

You do, of course, have to score them, but we often talk about this and it remains true: the penalty taker is at an extreme advantage versus the keeper and professional players should score 9 out of 10 times. The fact they do not is something that I still maintain will eventually be coached out eventually, forcing the governing bodies to devise a new method of deciding matches finishing extra time in a stalemate. We are already seeing a rising penalty success rate that is making FIFA nervous.

And I would say that in most (but not all) matches, Messi’s deficiencies outweighed that “Haaland effect”, see my reply to HelloCity for more on that.

In a way, I agree with you that Messi was Argentina’s (and perhaps even the World Cup’s) most important player, in that everything was designed to accommodate him (even some would say how the tournament was officiated).

 

[deegee33]

I genuinely think it is a possibility, especially given the modus operandi of the MLS. As I said, they have previous for fixing things to accommodate their marquee players (important to remember that more than any other league in the world the MLS is run as an entertainment product, not a football league) and Messi is their marquee of marquees they’ve invested in heavily. They need to maximise his impact, and what better way than in a one-off, first edition tournament they have almost complete control over, where there isn’t much incentive for individual teams to win it.

Anyway, I’ll stop with my “conspiracy theories”.

He’ll get protection, either way, and I think you’d have to be ignorant or naive to believe otherwise. So we agree he’ll likely score plenty.

My son, who played as a defender in the MLS for 15 years, now has a blog called "Major League Journeymen" along with two other players, one still active. On their latest podcast they discussed this very issue. I was originally in your camp Sebastian but after speaking with my kid and his mates, who are certainly more in touch with the Messi -MLS reality, than you or I have shifted more to Phil's take on the subject. Give it a look, you can find it on YouTube.