Lionel Messi

[SebastianBlue]

My son, who played as a defender in the MLS for 15 years, now has a blog called "Major League Journeymen" along with two other players, one still active. On their latest podcast they discussed this very issue. I was originally in your camp Sebastian but after speaking with my kid and his mates, who are certainly more in touch with the Messi -MLS reality, than you or I have shifted more to Phil's take on the subject. Give it a look, you can find it on YouTube.

I will give it a look!

Though, is there a chance that being heavily connected with (and somewhat dependent on access to and good favour from) the MLS might shade their opinions and perception of the situation?

I.e. they will be aware of what happens when someone speaks out even vaguely against the sanctioned narrative, a la the Inter Miami backup keeper?

Edit: here is the video for anyone else that would like to watch and support @deegee33 ‘s son.

 

[HelloCity]

I am comfortable being in the non-blinkered extreme minority. ;-)

I definitely didn’t see him dictating play in every match as you apparently did (I watched every match and I think that is a bit of revisionist history after they won the tournament). Definitely in a few, I agree, but not consistently throughout. Once more, the entire team was built and performed so he could roam and have basically no responsibilities other than creating and scoring, making things much more difficult for them (hence the Saudi, Poland, Australia, and Netherlands matches).

And Alvarez’s goals (no dubious penalties) helped them past Poland in the final group match (vital, given they lost their opener against Saudi), his individual brilliance ultimately won their Round of 16 game against Australia, and he was instrumental in putting Croatia away in the Semi-final (Messi assisted both, but without Alvarez, neither goal is scored).

Martinez saved Argentina on numerous occasions throughout the tournament, which was vital, given Messi often left Argentina open at the back, as every other player was there to make up for playing a man down in defence. That included making a final winning save at the death.

And don’t the think 2021 Copa America is especially relevant to the 2022 World Cup, but I appreciate your general point. That was an accomplishment.


You do, of course, have to score them, but we often talk about this and it remains true: the penalty taker is at an extreme advantage versus the keeper and professional players should score 9 out of 10 times. The fact they do not is something that I still maintain will eventually be coached out eventually, forcing the governing bodies to devise a new method of deciding matches finishing extra time in a stalemate. We are already seeing a rising penalty success rate that is making FIFA nervous.

And I would say that in most (but not all) matches, Messi’s deficiencies outweighed that “Haaland effect”, see my reply to HelloCity for more on that.

In a way, I agree with you that Messi was Argentina’s (and perhaps even the World Cup’s) most important player, in that everything was designed to accommodate him (even some would say how the tournament was officiated).

Yeah, no.

This is of similar analysis that says ‘David Silva does nothing of note’.

I also watched every game and I’ve not seen a single player be so influential in a team winning the tournament since Maradona (who was a lot younger).

Like I say, extreme minority and not what the vast majority of people would think especially those that know the game.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Yeah, no.

This is of similar analysis that says ‘David Silva does nothing of note’.

I also watched every game and I’ve not seen a single player be so influential in a team winning the tournament since Maradona (who was a lot younger).

Like I say, extreme minority and not what the vast majority of people would think especially those that know the game.

The David Silva analogy doesn’t really make sense, because I wasn’t arguing Messi didn’t do anything. I was just arguing he wasn’t actually Argentina’s best player (or perhaps even their most important, apart from the definition I mentioned to @supercity88).

And it’s a bit beneath you to imply I don’t know the game because I disagree on this subject, but ok, we’ll just agree to disagree.

As I have said many times, I think reverence for Messi and sentimentality has shaded perceptions and analysis of his World Cup performance (and his season in general compared to other players).

Had they lost any of those close matches throughout the knockout stages, of which other players largely pulled Argentina through, I imagine the perception of his contributions would have been very different.

Romanticism and revisionism are ripe in glory.

 

[SebastianBlue]

I will give it a look!

Though, is there a chance that being heavily connected with (and somewhat dependent on access to and good favour from) the MLS might shade their opinions and perception of the situation?

I.e. they will be aware of what happens when someone speaks out even vaguely against the sanctioned narrative, a la the Inter Miami backup keeper?

Edit: here is the video for anyone else that would like to watch and support @deegee33 ‘s son.

@deegee33 Enjoyed the listen.

Thought it was interesting their thoughts about how protected Messi and Inter Miami were in the Orlando match (McCarty said it was crazy how favoured Inter Miami) and their general perspective in hoping it doesn’t continue or lead to an over correction. And their thoughts on the comical own goal in the Dallas game (McCarty getting a text asking if that was match fixing, and him not actually saying if he thought it was, is quite funny). Them waxing lyrical about Messi is understandable and—despite what @HelloCity seems to think—I have done the same for years; I have had actual pub arguments with people who claimed Fake Ronaldo was better than Messi (which is nonsense).

And I actually agree with them regarding him being a “magnate” on the pitch. Which is why some of his goals have been somewhat suspect (which McCarty does touch on).

I do think McCarty’s comments especially are a bit shaded by still being an MLS player and needing to stay on the right side of the league (hence why he didn’t really say what he actually thought about the Dallas own goal) and just generally wanting to promote the league to which he has invested his entire life.

I truly believe Messi is the greatest player of all time.

I just don’t think he is anywhere near that level now (nor during the World Cup) and even if the vast majority (that apparently know the game) disagree with me on that, I know what I see compared to what I have seen watching nearly every minute of his career (literally in person when I was younger, playing competitive football, and spending a lot of time with my family in Zaragoza, when we would go watch Barca matches, as my great uncle has season tickets).

Anyway, I guess I should let it all go since I don’t know what I am talking about when it comes to football and am in the extreme minority on this topic.

 

[deegee33]

@deegee33 Enjoyed the listen.

Thought it was interesting their thoughts about how protected Messi and Inter Miami were in the Orlando match (McCarty said it was crazy how favoured Inter Miami) and their general perspective in hoping it doesn’t continue or lead to an over correction. And their thoughts on the comical own goal in the Dallas game (McCarty getting a text asking if that was match fixing, and him not actually saying if he thought it was, is quite funny). Them waxing lyrical about Messi is understandable and—despite what @HelloCity seems to think—I have done the same for years; I have had actual pub arguments with people who claimed Fake Ronaldo was better than Messi (which is nonsense).

And I actually agree with them regarding him being a “magnate” on the pitch. Which is why some of his goals have been somewhat suspect (which McCarty does touch on).

I do think McCarty’s comments especially are a bit shaded by still being an MLS player and needing to stay on the right side of the league (hence why he didn’t really say what he actually thought about the Dallas own goal) and just generally wanting to promote the league to which he has invested his entire life.

I truly believe Messi is the greatest player of all time.

I just don’t think he is anywhere near that level now (nor during the World Cup) and even if the vast majority (that apparently know the game) disagree with me on that, I know what I see compared to what I have seen watching nearly every minute of his career (literally in person when I was younger, playing competitive football, and spending a lot of time with my family in Zaragoza, when we would go watch Barca matches, as my great uncle has season tickets).

Anyway, I guess I should let it all go since I don’t know what I am talking about when it comes to football and am in the extreme minority on this topic.

I think you, like me, having played at a reasonably high level of competitive football, albeit many moons ago, know that when there was a great player on the pitch with you, he was given a certain leeway. I think Messi has certainly earned that regardless of the league he's playing in.

 

[Galvanoth]

Opponent team misses open net header and in the counter atack they score an own goal again what a clown corrupt cup/"football" in those parts

 

[SebastianBlue]

Opponent team misses open net header and in the counter atack they score an own goal again what a clown corrupt cup/"football" in those parts

1st goal: generous penalty

2nd goal: literally every defender jogging back, marking space, instead of covering Taylor running free in the middle of the box

3rd goal: as you say, fluffed open header in Inter Miami box, then counter to the other end where a Charlotte defender masterfully slots it in to his own net

4th goal: this time standing defending, with every defender inexplicably ignoring Messi running in to the box and none of the three within 5 yards trying to cut out the basic cut back to him so he could get on the scoresheet at the death

This result I will put down to a combination of really poor defending and suspect decision making.

Messi didn’t have a huge influence on the match this time, apart from his walking football goal at the end.

 

[Iassel]

Still don’t understand why people are surprised Messi is finding it all a bit easy..

The GOAT, who won the WC 8 months ago and is likely going to be 2023 Balon D’Or is playing against pub standard opposition, of course he isn’t going to struggle.

The gulf in quality between him and everyone else in the pitch is like when legendarily named (but not legendarily talented) centre back Fitz Hall went to play Sunday League with his mates as a centre forward and was scoring double hattricks each game.

 

[deegee33]

The effect Messi has on the game here is not only on the pitch. His next match is against Philadelphia, my hometown. The Union game was delayed last night for an hour, as soon as people realized that Inter Miami would be coming here my phone blew up. My Union season card gave me the opportunity to buy tix for the Leagues Cup as we advanced, I opted in and got 2 tix 18 rows up midway between the box and midfield $68. Sold them this morning for $4000. for the pair. My mid-March trip to Manchester has now been paid for and extended by 4 more days. See you then folks, thank you Leo Messi.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Still don’t understand why people are surprised Messi is finding it all a bit easy..

The GOAT, who won the WC 8 months ago and is likely going to be 2023 Balon D’Or is playing against pub standard opposition, of course he isn’t going to struggle.

The gulf in quality between him and everyone else in the pitch is like when legendarily named (but not legendarily talented) centre back Fitz Hall went to play Sunday League with his mates as a centre forward and was scoring double hattricks each game.

It’s not pub standard, and the criticism I have had has been about very suspect defending, not merely “poor” defending. The sort of stuff you see in matches that later are exposed for match fixing. Not all of it, mind, some really is just woeful play by the opposition. But some of it is rather dubious.

I do agree the gulf in pure quality is stark, but in a football there are still 21 others players to work with or overcome, and that is where the issues arise.

And I still maintain he is less deserving of the Ballon d’Or this season specifically than Erling, Kev, or even Jules. But I have maintained he will win it, just on pure sentimentality.