Liverpool Thread 2014/15

[superseiyan]

Re: The Red Lion Pub Team (Liverpool) Thread 2014/15

However bad this season is for Liverpool the owners should stick by and allow him next season personally. Wenger, Fergie etc all had horrid patches as management, bought utter dross etc. And you only have to look at Big Sam for us and Pardew for Newcastle to see stability usually pays off.

They overachieved last season, didn't have European football, had the worlds best striker and a class act in Sturridge - he's made a lot of mistakes but he should be allowed another season imo

I agree. He was our manager last season, take the good with the bad is fair play. Problem is that this means a willingness by management and fans to tolerate some discomfort. Not endlessly, but at least enough to see if we can figure our way out of this. Up to December 2015 is realistic--but he has to be backed publicly otherwise these days players start to sense a manager change is imminent and then they shut off.

It can actually be an opportunity approached the right way: 1. We stop buying on statistics. 2. Rodgers is humbled a little 3. Let players develop under Rodgers---we don't have players that other clubs are going to come and pick off. 4. Have another go next season without European football.

FWIW, I think Dalglish was sacked too early.

I'll ask the question again; what did the club expect when they hired a manager who'd had one decent season in the PL, after two seasons at Swansea (one in the Championship) and no European experience?

Swansea conceded 51 goals under him in 2011/12 whereas Liverpool (under Dalglish) conceded just 40. That went up to 43 under Rodgers, then 50 last season & probably at least the same this season at the current rate (22 from 16 games so far).
Last season's overachievement probably hasn't helped (although it must have been superbly enjoyable for the fans) as it might have been better to get fourth place to give you a platform to build from. Obviously losing Suarez and the injury to Sturridge hasn't helped you but does he look like the man to tighten up the defence, put out a functioning midfield or find a bargain?

Adding value to Swansea is not the same as adding value to Liverpool. Also this nonsense about him "developing" players - who has he "developed"? Everyone looks worse under him, not better, plus he seems to fall out with players and discard them without giving them a chance, while playing under-performing favourites. Lucas is far better in the DM position that Gerrard, Borini might bring something different to the forward line, Coutinho rarely seems to get a chance & Kolo Toure is an experienced & capable defender but gets overlooked in favour of Lovren. Allen is crap at the level you're aspiring to yet seems to be one of his favourites. That will cause problems in the dressing room, much like Mancini did with us doing something similar.

It's a tough situation. I see what your'e saying but there's also a cost to doing a ctrl-alt-delete. If things continue to spiral at some point then yes he has to go. But managers have to be allowed to ride out the tough patches. Then if after being given a chance it's not working, sure, get rid of them.

Agree that it might have been better getting 4th.

The thing about favorites is baffling and might be sack-worthy earlier than the timeline I'm proposing if he keeps doing it for the rest of this season.

Should we have stayed with Dalglish/Clarke? Though Dalglish brought Carroll and Downing....but even Caroll and Downing were better players before and after they came to Liverpool. Yes, something's fucked with how we scout/recruit players for sure. That's as big a problem as the currently under performing manager. Basically it's a shambles right now.

 

[flb]

Re: The Red Lion Pub Team (Liverpool) Thread 2014/15

<a class="postlink" href="https://vine.co/v/OvBUDvguVWM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">https://vine.co/v/OvBUDvguVWM</a>

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Re: The Red Lion Pub Team (Liverpool) Thread 2014/15

I agree. He was our manager last season, take the good with the bad is fair play. Problem is that this means a willingness by management and fans to tolerate some discomfort. Not endlessly, but at least enough to see if we can figure our way out of this. Up to December 2015 is realistic--but he has to be backed publicly otherwise these days players start to sense a manager change is imminent and then they shut off.

It can actually be an opportunity approached the right way: 1. We stop buying on statistics. 2. Rodgers is humbled a little 3. Let players develop under Rodgers---we don't have players that other clubs are going to come and pick off. 4. Have another go next season without European football.

FWIW, I think Dalglish was sacked too early.

I'll ask the question again; what did the club expect when they hired a manager who'd had one decent season in the PL, after two seasons at Swansea (one in the Championship) and no European experience?

Swansea conceded 51 goals under him in 2011/12 whereas Liverpool (under Dalglish) conceded just 40. That went up to 43 under Rodgers, then 50 last season & probably at least the same this season at the current rate (22 from 16 games so far).
Last season's overachievement probably hasn't helped (although it must have been superbly enjoyable for the fans) as it might have been better to get fourth place to give you a platform to build from. Obviously losing Suarez and the injury to Sturridge hasn't helped you but does he look like the man to tighten up the defence, put out a functioning midfield or find a bargain?

Adding value to Swansea is not the same as adding value to Liverpool. Also this nonsense about him "developing" players - who has he "developed"? Everyone looks worse under him, not better, plus he seems to fall out with players and discard them without giving them a chance, while playing under-performing favourites. Lucas is far better in the DM position that Gerrard, Borini might bring something different to the forward line, Coutinho rarely seems to get a chance & Kolo Toure is an experienced & capable defender but gets overlooked in favour of Lovren. Allen is crap at the level you're aspiring to yet seems to be one of his favourites. That will cause problems in the dressing room, much like Mancini did with us doing something similar.

It's a tough situation. I see what your'e saying but there's also a cost to doing a ctrl-alt-delete. If things continue to spiral at some point then yes he has to go. But managers have to be allowed to ride out the tough patches. Then if after being given a chance it's not working, sure, get rid of them.

Agree that it might have been better getting 4th.

The thing about favorites is baffling and might be sack-worthy earlier than the timeline I'm proposing if he keeps doing it for the rest of this season.

Should we have stayed with Dalglish/Clarke? Though Dalglish brought Carroll and Downing....but even Caroll and Downing were better players before and after they came to Liverpool. Yes, something's fucked with how we scout/recruit players for sure. That's as big a problem as the currently under performing manager. Basically it's a shambles right now.

Dalglish was the reaction to Hodgson and really wasn't the right candidate longer term but I could see why they asked him to do it. Wasn't the purchase of Carroll/downing part of the 'Moneyball' theory, with Carroll scoring the most headed goals and Downing supplying the most crosses beibng the justification? I'm sure that's what I heard at the time but whatever, we all know you overpaid horribly. However both doing a good job at West Ham now so clearly not bad players.

I can certainly see the justification for writing this season off & giving him another season to try to get things right. After all, he bought a lot of players in the summer and it's hard to integrate that number quickly. But can he integrate them at all? There's no evidence he can organise defensively and little more that he knows how to set a team up. He seems to lurch from one disaster to another, without knowing his best team. That would worry me more than anything. He needs to sort out his preferred line-up and get them playing together regularly.

James Pearce in The Echo is now reporting that this Transfer Committee of yours votes by a simple majority and that Rodgers didn't want Balotelli (which he stated publicly) but was outvoted. Also that other managers turned the job down when they found out they would not have the final say on signings and team affairs but would have ot report to a DoF. Seems like relations between Rodgers and the rest of the committee aren't good and they've dragged their feet on the chance to sign better players (like Vorm, Costa, Sanchez & Willian) because they wouldn't sanction the spend or (in the case of Sanchez) pissed about on the negotiations. It really doesn't sound good for you if that's true. Your owners really don't understand the game and whoever is advising them clearly isn't doing a good job. Having read all that, I actually feel a bit sorry for Bodger, although he's certainly partly the architect of his own downfall.

 

[stony]

Re: The Red Lion Pub Team (Liverpool) Thread 2014/15

https://vine.co/v/OvBUDvguVWM

Hahaha, fucking brilliant.

 

[Loaded Man]

Re: The Red Lion Pub Team (Liverpool) Thread 2014/15

.

I'll ask the question again; what did the club expect when they hired a manager who'd had one decent season in the PL, after two seasons at Swansea (one in the Championship) and no European experience?

Swansea conceded 51 goals under him in 2011/12 whereas Liverpool (under Dalglish) conceded just 40. That went up to 43 under Rodgers, then 50 last season & probably at least the same this season at the current rate (22 from 16 games so far).
Last season's overachievement probably hasn't helped (although it must have been superbly enjoyable for the fans) as it might have been better to get fourth place to give you a platform to build from. Obviously losing Suarez and the injury to Sturridge hasn't helped you but does he look like the man to tighten up the defence, put out a functioning midfield or find a bargain?

Adding value to Swansea is not the same as adding value to Liverpool. Also this nonsense about him "developing" players - who has he "developed"? Everyone looks worse under him, not better, plus he seems to fall out with players and discard them without giving them a chance, while playing under-performing favourites. Lucas is far better in the DM position that Gerrard, Borini might bring something different to the forward line, Coutinho rarely seems to get a chance & Kolo Toure is an experienced & capable defender but gets overlooked in favour of Lovren. Allen is crap at the level you're aspiring to yet seems to be one of his favourites. That will cause problems in the dressing room, much like Mancini did with us doing something similar.

I think they probably wanted someone ‘up and coming’ and progressive in terms of management style – and, arguably, based on the last 18 months prior to this season, then that’s exactly what we have had.

Or they may have wanted someone who would fit around the principles in terms of how they wanted to run the club – fall in line with transfer committees, trimming the wage bill, investment in ‘potential’ - someone who wouldn’t rock the boat too much, who was relatively cheap.

Might have been a bit of both. Who knows.

I’d maintain that in this league it still takes more than one world class player to drag a club to second though and Rodgers had definitely been doing something right in his time here.

There were significant improvements in the likes of Flanagan, Henderson and Sturridge last season. Suarez also thrived under Rodgers in a way that he didn’t under Dalglish and hasn’t yet at Barcelona (although it should only be a matter of time at Barca I would think).

This season has been different, of course – although, out of the players that did improve last season, then only Henderson has really featured – no argument that he’s gone backwards this season for whatever reason though.

Regarding the on-going exclusion of Borini, then I suspect this may be largely ‘political’ – both the club and Rodgers wanted him sold in the summer and still do by all accounts – freezing him out may be how they think they’ll be able to do this come January. He is shit though anyway.

Probably the main thing crippling us though is that, other than Sturridge, we now no longer have any forward capable of playing the sort of football that Rodgers wants – he didn’t want Balotelli and I’m sure Lambert was bought as nothing more than a ‘if all else fails stick him on for the last 15 minutes when chasing the game and see what happens’ type – get Sturridge back or another player of a similar ilk in and I think the team will start having more cohesion to it.

Really don’t know what purpose it would serve getting rid of Rodgers at the moment – yes, he’s got a massive job on his hands to turn things around – and seems incapable of setting up a team in order to keep a clean sheet – but, the transfer committee will still be there when he’s long gone, as will FSG’s ‘philosophy’. The time for him to exert more influence and demand more power was the summer though and that’s definitely an opportunity that he missed.

Worrying times nevertheless.

Up the reds!

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Re: The Red Lion Pub Team (Liverpool) Thread 2014/15

I'll ask the question again; what did the club expect when they hired a manager who'd had one decent season in the PL, after two seasons at Swansea (one in the Championship) and no European experience?

Swansea conceded 51 goals under him in 2011/12 whereas Liverpool (under Dalglish) conceded just 40. That went up to 43 under Rodgers, then 50 last season & probably at least the same this season at the current rate (22 from 16 games so far).
Last season's overachievement probably hasn't helped (although it must have been superbly enjoyable for the fans) as it might have been better to get fourth place to give you a platform to build from. Obviously losing Suarez and the injury to Sturridge hasn't helped you but does he look like the man to tighten up the defence, put out a functioning midfield or find a bargain?

Adding value to Swansea is not the same as adding value to Liverpool. Also this nonsense about him "developing" players - who has he "developed"? Everyone looks worse under him, not better, plus he seems to fall out with players and discard them without giving them a chance, while playing under-performing favourites. Lucas is far better in the DM position that Gerrard, Borini might bring something different to the forward line, Coutinho rarely seems to get a chance & Kolo Toure is an experienced & capable defender but gets overlooked in favour of Lovren. Allen is crap at the level you're aspiring to yet seems to be one of his favourites. That will cause problems in the dressing room, much like Mancini did with us doing something similar.

It's a tough situation. I see what your'e saying but there's also a cost to doing a ctrl-alt-delete. If things continue to spiral at some point then yes he has to go. But managers have to be allowed to ride out the tough patches. Then if after being given a chance it's not working, sure, get rid of them.

Agree that it might have been better getting 4th.

The thing about favorites is baffling and might be sack-worthy earlier than the timeline I'm proposing if he keeps doing it for the rest of this season.

Should we have stayed with Dalglish/Clarke? Though Dalglish brought Carroll and Downing....but even Caroll and Downing were better players before and after they came to Liverpool. Yes, something's fucked with how we scout/recruit players for sure. That's as big a problem as the currently under performing manager. Basically it's a shambles right now.

Dalglish was the reaction to Hodgson and really wasn't the right candidate longer term but I could see why they asked him to do it. Wasn't the purchase of Carroll/downing part of the 'Moneyball' theory, with Carroll scoring the most headed goals and Downing supplying the most crosses beibng the justification? I'm sure that's what I heard at the time but whatever, we all know you overpaid horribly. However both doing a good job at West Ham now so clearly not bad players.

I can certainly see the justification for writing this season off & giving him another season to try to get things right. After all, he bought a lot of players in the summer and it's hard to integrate that number quickly. But can he integrate them at all? There's no evidence he can organise defensively and little more that he knows how to set a team up. He seems to lurch from one disaster to another, without knowing his best team. That would worry me more than anything. He needs to sort out his preferred line-up and get them playing together regularly.

James Pearce in The Echo is now reporting that this Transfer Committee of yours votes by a simple majority and that Rodgers didn't want Balotelli (which he stated publcily) but was outvoted. Also that other managers turned the job down when they found out they would not have the final say on signings and team affairs but would have ot report to a DoF. Seems like relations between Rodgers and the rest of the committee aren't good and they've dragged their feet on the chance to sign better players (like Vorm, Costa, Sanchez & Willian) because they wouldn't sanction the spend or (in the case of Sanchez) pissed about on the negotiations. It really doesn't sound good for you if that's true. Your owners really don't understand the game and whoever is advising them clearly isn't doing a good job. Having read all that, I actually feel a bit sorry for Bodger, although he's certainly partly the architect of his own downfall.

Liverpool side on Sunday: Jones, Johnson, Skrtel, Lovren, Moreno, Henderson, Allen, Gerrard, Coutinho, Lallana, Sterling.
Subs: Mignolet, Toure, Lucas, Can, Markovic, Lambert, Balotelli.

What they could have had for the same net spend in the summer:
Team: Vorm, Manquillo, Skrtel, Alderweireld, Moreno, Song, Gerrard, Sterling, Coutinho, Sanchez, Mandzukic.
Subs: Mignolet, Johnson, Sakho, Lucas, Henderson, Tadic, Valencia.

Sales = £83m.
Current Spend: £116.5m.
New Sales: £48m.
New Spend: £56m (excluding Sanchez who is included in Suarez deal).

Considering you had a net spend of £33m last summer, you'd then have £27m to spend on another player, maybe a Lovren, Lallana or Markovic, but perhaps someone else top draw. Don't think that's an unreasonable change from what you did.

 

[IH8MUFC]

Re: The Red Lion Pub Team (Liverpool) Thread 2014/15

Just seen the highlights, they absolutely killed United in terms of chances and actual football.

If Sturridge was playing, It would have been 5 or 6 against United quite easily.

Rodgers has wasted the Suarez money, Moreno looks a good full back and Markovic has potential along with Can but the rest are mid table crap.

Lovren, Lallana, Lambert and Mario?
Around £70 million on those 4 duds

Sell all the deadwood and beg Suarez to come back in January is what they should do.

Lallana is a vastly superior player to markovic.

 

[carlos tevez is a blue]

Re: The Red Lion Pub Team (Liverpool) Thread 2014/15

However bad this season is for Liverpool the owners should stick by and allow him next season personally. Wenger, Fergie etc all had horrid patches as management, bought utter dross etc. And you only have to look at Big Sam for us and Pardew for Newcastle to see stability usually pays off.

They overachieved last season, didn't have European football, had the worlds best striker and a class act in Sturridge - he's made a lot of mistakes but he should be allowed another season imo

I think he should definitely have another four or five seasons to see how far he can take them !

League 1?

 

[billymumphrey]

Re: The Red Lion Pub Team (Liverpool) Thread 2014/15

It's a tough situation. I see what your'e saying but there's also a cost to doing a ctrl-alt-delete. If things continue to spiral at some point then yes he has to go. But managers have to be allowed to ride out the tough patches. Then if after being given a chance it's not working, sure, get rid of them.

Agree that it might have been better getting 4th.

The thing about favorites is baffling and might be sack-worthy earlier than the timeline I'm proposing if he keeps doing it for the rest of this season.

Should we have stayed with Dalglish/Clarke? Though Dalglish brought Carroll and Downing....but even Caroll and Downing were better players before and after they came to Liverpool. Yes, something's fucked with how we scout/recruit players for sure. That's as big a problem as the currently under performing manager. Basically it's a shambles right now.

Dalglish was the reaction to Hodgson and really wasn't the right candidate longer term but I could see why they asked him to do it. Wasn't the purchase of Carroll/downing part of the 'Moneyball' theory, with Carroll scoring the most headed goals and Downing supplying the most crosses beibng the justification? I'm sure that's what I heard at the time but whatever, we all know you overpaid horribly. However both doing a good job at West Ham now so clearly not bad players.

I can certainly see the justification for writing this season off & giving him another season to try to get things right. After all, he bought a lot of players in the summer and it's hard to integrate that number quickly. But can he integrate them at all? There's no evidence he can organise defensively and little more that he knows how to set a team up. He seems to lurch from one disaster to another, without knowing his best team. That would worry me more than anything. He needs to sort out his preferred line-up and get them playing together regularly.

James Pearce in The Echo is now reporting that this Transfer Committee of yours votes by a simple majority and that Rodgers didn't want Balotelli (which he stated publcily) but was outvoted. Also that other managers turned the job down when they found out they would not have the final say on signings and team affairs but would have ot report to a DoF. Seems like relations between Rodgers and the rest of the committee aren't good and they've dragged their feet on the chance to sign better players (like Vorm, Costa, Sanchez & Willian) because they wouldn't sanction the spend or (in the case of Sanchez) pissed about on the negotiations. It really doesn't sound good for you if that's true. Your owners really don't understand the game and whoever is advising them clearly isn't doing a good job. Having read all that, I actually feel a bit sorry for Bodger, although he's certainly partly the architect of his own downfall.

Liverpool side on Sunday: Jones, Johnson, Skrtel, Lovren, Moreno, Henderson, Allen, Gerrard, Coutinho, Lallana, Sterling.
Subs: Mignolet, Toure, Lucas, Can, Markovic, Lambert, Balotelli.

What they could have had for the same net spend in the summer:
Team: Vorm, Manquillo, Skrtel, Alderweireld, Moreno, Song, Gerrard, Sterling, Coutinho, Sanchez, Mandzukic.
Subs: Mignolet, Johnson, Sakho, Lucas, Henderson, Tadic, Valencia.

Sales = £83m.
Current Spend: £116.5m.
New Sales: £48m.
New Spend: £56m (excluding Sanchez who is included in Suarez deal).

Considering you had a net spend of £33m last summer, you'd then have £27m to spend on another player, maybe a Lovren, Lallana or Markovic, but perhaps someone else top draw. Don't think that's an unreasonable change from what you did.

That's some flawed logic.

Doesn't take into account wages nor the desire for players to join clubs.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Re: The Red Lion Pub Team (Liverpool) Thread 2014/15

Dalglish was the reaction to Hodgson and really wasn't the right candidate longer term but I could see why they asked him to do it. Wasn't the purchase of Carroll/downing part of the 'Moneyball' theory, with Carroll scoring the most headed goals and Downing supplying the most crosses beibng the justification? I'm sure that's what I heard at the time but whatever, we all know you overpaid horribly. However both doing a good job at West Ham now so clearly not bad players.

I can certainly see the justification for writing this season off & giving him another season to try to get things right. After all, he bought a lot of players in the summer and it's hard to integrate that number quickly. But can he integrate them at all? There's no evidence he can organise defensively and little more that he knows how to set a team up. He seems to lurch from one disaster to another, without knowing his best team. That would worry me more than anything. He needs to sort out his preferred line-up and get them playing together regularly.

James Pearce in The Echo is now reporting that this Transfer Committee of yours votes by a simple majority and that Rodgers didn't want Balotelli (which he stated publcily) but was outvoted. Also that other managers turned the job down when they found out they would not have the final say on signings and team affairs but would have ot report to a DoF. Seems like relations between Rodgers and the rest of the committee aren't good and they've dragged their feet on the chance to sign better players (like Vorm, Costa, Sanchez & Willian) because they wouldn't sanction the spend or (in the case of Sanchez) pissed about on the negotiations. It really doesn't sound good for you if that's true. Your owners really don't understand the game and whoever is advising them clearly isn't doing a good job. Having read all that, I actually feel a bit sorry for Bodger, although he's certainly partly the architect of his own downfall.

Liverpool side on Sunday: Jones, Johnson, Skrtel, Lovren, Moreno, Henderson, Allen, Gerrard, Coutinho, Lallana, Sterling.
Subs: Mignolet, Toure, Lucas, Can, Markovic, Lambert, Balotelli.

What they could have had for the same net spend in the summer:
Team: Vorm, Manquillo, Skrtel, Alderweireld, Moreno, Song, Gerrard, Sterling, Coutinho, Sanchez, Mandzukic.
Subs: Mignolet, Johnson, Sakho, Lucas, Henderson, Tadic, Valencia.

Sales = £83m.
Current Spend: £116.5m.
New Sales: £48m.
New Spend: £56m (excluding Sanchez who is included in Suarez deal).

Considering you had a net spend of £33m last summer, you'd then have £27m to spend on another player, maybe a Lovren, Lallana or Markovic, but perhaps someone else top draw. Don't think that's an unreasonable change from what you did.

That's some flawed logic.

Doesn't take into account wages nor the desire for players to join clubs.

Do you think that Vorm, sat on the bench at Spurs, is being paid more than Mignolet? Or that Alderweireld, Song, Valencia, Tadic or even Sanchez are on huge wages at their clubs? Or that they wouldn't have preferred CL football to slogging it out in mid-table?

Of course you can never guarantee anything but JMW has posted a realistic scenario in my opinion. Mind you what Bodger, the Antrim Mourinho, would have done with them is anyone's guess.