Mancini - Out of his depth

fast eddie said:
ono said:
Here's what i don't understand though. You're complaining about the fact that he couldn't win the Champions League yet Mourinho did. That's true, but Mourinho added to a great team which was created by Mancini. The team already had the winning mentality, which wasn't there pre-Mancini, considering they'd gone 15 years without a trophy. The team Mourinho inherited already contained Ibrahimovic, Julio Cesar, Maicon, Balotelli and Cambiasso, all of which were signed by Mancini.

Mourinho still took Inter Milan to the Champions League Final and they won it. Something Mancini failed to do on numerous occasions. How long does it take a carefully crafted team to go on to win the trophy after playing together for so long? Benitez delivered the Champions League in his first season!
He might have done, but the key players had been at Liverpool for a few years. The bulk of the team at Inter had been together for 3 or 4 years and they had been winning together for 3 or 4 years before Mourinho added Milito, Eto'o, Sneijder and Lucio to the team.

Your argument seems hinged on the fact that he didn't win the CL, which is odd because it's ignoring the fact that he won the league 3 times and the Italian Cup 4 times. Would you not settle for that over the next 4 years at City, or is that not good enough?
 
Also, Benitez won the CL with huge amounts of luck.

Chelsea should have beaten them in the semis, Milan absolutely fell apart in the second half, and they relied on lots of dodgy or late goals in the early stages.
 
Damocles said:
That's part of my point though, there's no such thing really as 'the English game'. It does have small differences between the rest of the world, but not enough to make it a completely fresh style of football.

McClaren failed here and succeeded abroad, simply because he could only pick English players for the England team, who were too used to 'their way of doing things'. He did okay with Boro where he could drill new techniques into players who he was working with. I'm not saying that all English players are stupid, but I do think that as a footballing culture we aren't thinking enough, thus it leaks down into our academies. English players do absolutely fine in alternative systems at club level, when they have worked on it for a while.

It's not the philosophy of the English game that he needs to change, because the English game is more continental in its approach than ever. I think that WE need to change our philosophies to reflect the current state of the game rather than the old philosophies. We, as in the fans and the pundits. The people who get paid to win games have no such bias to rely on.

I'll use Ferguson as a classic example. For years, and years and years, people (fans, media, pundits) have talked about his 4-4-2 system and how it is a success. For years and years and years, Ferguson has been trying to tell people that he has never played a 4-4-2 system in his life, he plays split strikers. However, this doesn't fit the mould in the head of people, so they disregard it.

I can see what you're saying, but I disagree to an extent. I do think there's such a thing as an "English/British game" that is different to continental Europe. I also think if Ferguson had left Aberdeen & went to Real Madrid he'd not as successful as he's been at the Swamp.

We have very few English/British players who make it abroad, the last was Beckham and even then he wasn't as good at Real as he was at United. Look at Owen, scored for fun in the Prem, went to Spain & couldn't get a game & has come back half the player he was.
 
15 in 35 (when most of them are sub appearances) isn't bad really, but you have a point about us not exporting many players. Managers usually put this down to the thing I mentioned before about adaptability.

How would you categorise the British game then? What attributes does it possess?
 
ono said:
fast eddie said:
Mourinho still took Inter Milan to the Champions League Final and they won it. Something Mancini failed to do on numerous occasions. How long does it take a carefully crafted team to go on to win the trophy after playing together for so long? Benitez delivered the Champions League in his first season!
He might have done, but the key players had been at Liverpool for a few years. The bulk of the team at Inter had been together for 3 or 4 years and they had been winning together for 3 or 4 years before Mourinho added Milito, Eto'o, Sneijder and Lucio to the team.

Your argument seems hinged on the fact that he didn't win the CL, which is odd because it's ignoring the fact that he won the league 3 times and the Italian Cup 4 times. Would you not settle for that over the next 4 years at City, or is that not good enough?

This is Walter Smith's record

Rangers

* Scottish Premier League (9): 1990–91, 1991–92, 1992–93, 1993–94, 1994–95, 1995–96, 1996–97, 2008–09, 2009–10
* Scottish Cup (5): 1991–92, 1992–93, 1995–96, 2007–08, 2008–09
* Scottish League Cup (5): 1992–93, 1993–94, 1996–97, 2007–08, 2009–10


Scotland

* Kirin Cup (1): 2006

A fantastic record, but would you want him as City manager?
 
Damocles said:
That's part of my point though, there's no such thing really as 'the English game'. It does have small differences between the rest of the world, but not enough to make it a completely fresh style of football.

McClaren failed here and succeeded abroad, simply because he could only pick English players for the England team, who were too used to 'their way of doing things'. He did okay with Boro where he could drill new techniques into players who he was working with. I'm not saying that all English players are stupid, but I do think that as a footballing culture we aren't thinking enough, thus it leaks down into our academies. English players do absolutely fine in alternative systems at club level, when they have worked on it for a while.

It's not the philosophy of the English game that he needs to change, because the English game is more continental in its approach than ever. I think that WE need to change our philosophies to reflect the current state of the game rather than the old philosophies. We, as in the fans and the pundits. The people who get paid to win games have no such bias to rely on.

I'll use Ferguson as a classic example. For years, and years and years, people (fans, media, pundits) have talked about his 4-4-2 system and how it is a success. For years and years and years, Ferguson has been trying to tell people that he has never played a 4-4-2 system in his life, he plays split strikers. However, this doesn't fit the mould in the head of people, so they disregard it.

In fairness I don't think we're talking about the same things. I agree that the English style has to change, I've been saying it for years and think that is why we always do badly at major tournaments.

I'm not saying English football is a completely different style, just that some players/managers are successful in England and some aren't. Mancini was a success in Italy, but that doesn't necessarily mean he will be in England, one would hope it would make it more likely, but it doesn't always work like that.

Like I say, a lot of your post doesn't relate to what I was trying to say with mine, which is perhaps what you meant when you said that it wasn't directed personally at me..
 
Damocles said:
15 in 35 (when most of them are sub appearances) isn't bad really, but you have a point about us not exporting many players. Managers usually put this down to the thing I mentioned before about adaptability.

How would you categorise the British game then? What attributes does it possess?

Probably wrongly, but the British game is far more physical & you get less time on the ball.

It's not as good technically as a lot of continental Europe, but when our top teams try to play top European teams at there own game they get ripped to shreds, whereas when we "get in about them" we have a chance.
 
Chelsea are the best team in the Premier League at the moment,' he said. 'They are probably going to win the Premier League title easily.
--------------------------------------------

Great attitude Mancini, just the way to inspire more belief in your team
 
gooney said:
Chelsea are the best team in the Premier League at the moment,' he said. 'They are probably going to win the Premier League title easily.
--------------------------------------------

Great attitude Mancini, just the way to inspire more belief in your team

TBF that's exactly what I'd want him saying, put the pressure on them. If he comes out & says we're going to batter them tomorrow & win the league come May, then that heaps a hell of a lot of extra pressure on the City players tomorrow & then even more for the next games if we lose.
 
Glasgow Man City said:
gooney said:
Chelsea are the best team in the Premier League at the moment,' he said. 'They are probably going to win the Premier League title easily.
--------------------------------------------

Great attitude Mancini, just the way to inspire more belief in your team

TBF that's exactly what I'd want him saying, put the pressure on them. If he comes out & says we're going to batter them tomorrow & win the league come May, then that heaps a hell of a lot of extra pressure on the City players tomorrow & then even more for the next games if we lose.

Thats one way to look at it, the other way is if city lose and those comments will be used against him. People talk like chelsea are this super team, but they really lack depth in their squad<br /><br />-- Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:07 pm --<br /><br />Listen to talksport now and how they are using those comments against him now. Stupid comments to make when the media is on your back
 

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