supercrystal7 said:MCFC1993 said:supercrystal7 said:Of course 2006 counts. Pele had won the world cup a year younger. Ronaldo made a much bigger impact in 98. However, it is not just world cups, what about Copa America's? It's not just that he has failed to win any of them, he has not set the tournaments alight.
Sorry the 2010 team still had Heinze and Samuel. Samuel was one of the best defenders in the world at the time.
If trophies and awards are you argument, then lets compare Messi's domestic and personal achievement too...
World Cups: Maradona 1 Messi 0
League Titles: Messi 6 Maradona 2
Copa Americas (One of your points): Messi & Maradona 0
Champions Leagues: Messi 3 Maradona 0
Uefa Cup: Maradona 1, Messi (Never played in the competition)
World Club Cup: Messi 2 Maradona (Never played in the competition)
World Player of the Year: Messi 4 Maradona 0
Yes these stats been nothing in comparison, but me it puts to the bed the bollocks of not winning a world cup.
I mean FFS, does that make Kleberson better than Messi because he won a World Cup?Does it fuck.
-- Tue May 28, 2013 4:45 am --
supercrystal7 said:Poor excuse. Messi's Argentina team was much better than the Maradona one. Brazil won the world cup with Roque Junior playing out the back. Barcelona won the champions league with Mascherano. Their defense was not that bad. Their team was exceptionally strong on paper.
How has Messi adapted his game? He is playing the exact same system he has been playing in as a child. Xavi has always been the secret to Barcelona. Spain win everything and Argentina win nothing.
From what I know, no one has ever matched the genius of Lionel Messi to such a long period of time. For 5 years now, he has become unplayable, for those that question that, particularly those that think he's been sussed out i'd also argue that by saying, teams are sussing Barca out not Messi.
I'm not saying Maradona shouldn't be compared to Messi because he clearly should, but I find it hard to believe that anyone is close to Messi.
No offense, but you admit to having not seen the other guys and then claim Messi is better than them? Have you any idea of what the other players achieved?
If you think Messi is playing in the same position and same style that he was when he was 17 then you are deluded. He was a rough diamond with pure potential when he started out but over the past 4/5 years he has been moulded into a powerhouse. Look at his goalscoring record and you'll see where he started to be moulded into the player he is now.
I've read more and watched more than most people I know on every player I mentioned. The age restriction of me not being able to see all these players live, restricts me to saying i'm only 99% certain Messi is the best player that has lived.
Trophies are not my only indicator. It is being able to win on the biggest occasion or at least drag your team as close as possible. Ronaldo has completely outperformed Messi with weaker Portugal teams and sometimes worst managers.
Maradona played with much, much weaker teams than Messi. How about we compare Messi with other players, who played with top teams.
How about we look at Di Steffano's record or Beckenbauer or Zidane or Xavi or Ronaldinho?
I think when Messi became more focused on scoring goals only and had the Barcelona team built around him it made the team as a whole less effective. Pele at 17 was a no where near the player he would later become.
Are you actually reading what I'm writing?supercrystal7 said:Yes and you are comparing him to a man, who at just 17 was winning the world cup. That is how ridiculous it is to win three world cups.
So what if Gutierrez was playing for a Championship side, he actually had a pretty decent season. Excuse after excuse is trotted out for Messi. Ronaldo played in even poorer organised Portugal teams and managed to get them further than Messi. Holland have bloody Heitinga playing at the back and challenged for the world cup.
It is not just about the defense letting them down. Messi scored no goals and was poor at the tournament. In the following Copa America he was even worse going out in the group stages as the host nation.
conormcfc said:Are you actually reading what I'm writing?supercrystal7 said:Yes and you are comparing him to a man, who at just 17 was winning the world cup. That is how ridiculous it is to win three world cups.
So what if Gutierrez was playing for a Championship side, he actually had a pretty decent season. Excuse after excuse is trotted out for Messi. Ronaldo played in even poorer organised Portugal teams and managed to get them further than Messi. Holland have bloody Heitinga playing at the back and challenged for the world cup.
It is not just about the defense letting them down. Messi scored no goals and was poor at the tournament. In the following Copa America he was even worse going out in the group stages as the host nation.
I'm not comparing him to Pele for a start, so I don't know why you're bringing him up.
What did you want Messi to do in '06 exactly? As I've said, he played about an hours football in the entire tournament, bit different to Pele and Ronaldo starting every game.
Are you actually saying there was nothing wrong with playing a left winger at right back at the world cup? Again, I'm not sure if you're actually reading before posting.
C.Ronaldo has not played in worse organized teams that that Argentina team, not even close. You're talking nonsense.
supercrystal7 said:I don't expect anything for an 18 year old at that level. However, when you call Messi the best every you have to take a look at what other people arguing for the title were doing. There is a reason Messi only played an hour, whilst Pele and Ronaldo played every game taking their teams to the final/trophy.
Have you actually seen Portugal under Queiroz? Portugal had some terrible organisation and selections. I am not even asking Messi to win an international, just an international career comparable to Cristiano Ronaldo would be a start, but he falls woefully short.
Gutierrez at right back is a very bad move and he actually got dropped for later games. However, I will bring up the team to remind you of the talent it had.
Romero
Gutierrez Demichellis Samuel Heinze
Veron Mascherano Di Maria
Tevez Milito Messi
Not the best organised team, but they should have been capable of destroying teams on the attack. If they were conceding 4 but scoring 3 then you might have a point. Messi scored no goals.
Then how about the Copa America where as Host they went out in the group stages? Sorry what excuse do you have this time?
Except I don't just keep going on about Maradona. I said I consider Pele the best ever and then was drawn in on comments about Messi being the best. It's not a question of being further along in their development. At the ages of 17/18 they already accomplished more in their international career than Messi has so far.conormcfc said:supercrystal7 said:I don't expect anything for an 18 year old at that level. However, when you call Messi the best every you have to take a look at what other people arguing for the title were doing. There is a reason Messi only played an hour, whilst Pele and Ronaldo played every game taking their teams to the final/trophy.
Have you actually seen Portugal under Queiroz? Portugal had some terrible organisation and selections. I am not even asking Messi to win an international, just an international career comparable to Cristiano Ronaldo would be a start, but he falls woefully short.
Gutierrez at right back is a very bad move and he actually got dropped for later games. However, I will bring up the team to remind you of the talent it had.
Romero
Gutierrez Demichellis Samuel Heinze
Veron Mascherano Di Maria
Tevez Milito Messi
Not the best organised team, but they should have been capable of destroying teams on the attack. If they were conceding 4 but scoring 3 then you might have a point. Messi scored no goals.
Then how about the Copa America where as Host they went out in the group stages? Sorry what excuse do you have this time?
Yeah, they were further in their development at the time. What point are you making? Maradona who you've been going on about didn't play in a world cup till the age of 22 so let's not get off topic.
Fucking hell, you're comparing the organization of Queiroz's Portugal side that conceded 1 goal in an entire world cup (to Spain no less) to Maradona's Argentina. Get a grip mate.
As a manager Maradona wasn't fit to manage a pub team. Does looking at that Argentina team not tell you everything about how badly set up it was to beat top teams? Di Maria is playing centre mid for God's sake! It's clear as day to anyone that any decent side would rip them apart. Bolivia beat them about 7-0 in qualifying ffs.
They didn't go out in the group stage of the Copa America, they got knocked out on pens by Uruguay in the quarters.
They had, yeah. But they both played in far better international set-ups. And Messi has already surpassed both their club accomplishments at the age of 25 and me personally I consider years of club football over a month of internationals once every 4 years.supercrystal7 said:Except I don't just keep going on about Maradona. I said I consider Pele the best ever and then was drawn in on comments about Messi being the best. It's not a question of being further along in their development. At the ages of 17/18 they already accomplished more in their international career than Messi has so far.
Queirroz was an awful manager, who pretty much parked the bus. Parking the bus with a team containing the attacking talent of Portugal is not good tactics. They conceded 1 goal, but apart from against North Korea, they didnt score a goal either.
Yes you are right they managed to beat Costa Rica to get through, which was the only game they won and Messi scored no goals.
Messi's career for his club is not really much better than Pele's and we all know Ronaldo's career was wrecked by injury. Messi's internation set up being poor is a complete myth. With the players he has available he should be able to do better.conormcfc said:They had, yeah. But they both played in far better international set-ups. And Messi has already surpassed both their club accomplishments at the age of 25 and me personally I consider years of club football over a month of internationals once every 4 years.supercrystal7 said:Except I don't just keep going on about Maradona. I said I consider Pele the best ever and then was drawn in on comments about Messi being the best. It's not a question of being further along in their development. At the ages of 17/18 they already accomplished more in their international career than Messi has so far.
Queirroz was an awful manager, who pretty much parked the bus. Parking the bus with a team containing the attacking talent of Portugal is not good tactics. They conceded 1 goal, but apart from against North Korea, they didnt score a goal either.
Yes you are right they managed to beat Costa Rica to get through, which was the only game they won and Messi scored no goals.
No Portugal managed to get to the semi final in 06 and lost on penalties against Spain in the Euro's with the same group of players. The Portugal team would have been better attacking. His record as manager was terrible.Those tactics employed by Queiroz were perfectly reasonable. The only way they'd beat top teams was by putting people behind the ball and playing on the counter. That's how they still set up now against the top sides and it's the best way to utilize their personnel. Bad tactics would've been to play an attacking formation against Spain. Maradona should've took a leaf out of his book, as opposed to the all out attack approach he adopted that was doomed for failure. There's no comparison between the 2 managers in terms of abilty to organize or ability to actually select a team.
Let's see what happens when they reach a tournament again. Other plays have achieved more with weaker set ups.<br /><br />-- Tue May 28, 2013 12:30 pm --<br /><br />Again, it's sort of hard to have much affect when your team is devoid of any sort of balance or platform for the better players to perform. Look at his form since that tournament, they seem to have found a proper system now and he's scoring plenty.
I hear this often, but based on what don't you rate international football. Do you agree of disagree that Germany are better than Bayern? Italy better Juventus, Spain better than Barcelona? France around the level of PSG? Holland much, much better than Ajax. Belgium much, much better than any of the Belgian teams? Croatia are decent and that is before we look at the South American teams.mancity25 said:I don't rate international football. I personally think the Champions League is a lot harder to win than the World Cup.
So for me, Messi doesn't have to prove anything.
supercrystal7 said:Messi's career for his club is not really much better than Pele's and we all know Ronaldo's career was wrecked by injury. Messi's internation set up being poor is a complete myth. With the players he has available he should be able to do better.conormcfc said:They had, yeah. But they both played in far better international set-ups. And Messi has already surpassed both their club accomplishments at the age of 25 and me personally I consider years of club football over a month of internationals once every 4 years.supercrystal7 said:Except I don't just keep going on about Maradona. I said I consider Pele the best ever and then was drawn in on comments about Messi being the best. It's not a question of being further along in their development. At the ages of 17/18 they already accomplished more in their international career than Messi has so far.
Queirroz was an awful manager, who pretty much parked the bus. Parking the bus with a team containing the attacking talent of Portugal is not good tactics. They conceded 1 goal, but apart from against North Korea, they didnt score a goal either.
Yes you are right they managed to beat Costa Rica to get through, which was the only game they won and Messi scored no goals.
No Portugal managed to get to the semi final in 06 and lost on penalties against Spain in the Euro's with the same group of players. The Portugal team would have been better attacking. His record as manager was terrible.Those tactics employed by Queiroz were perfectly reasonable. The only way they'd beat top teams was by putting people behind the ball and playing on the counter. That's how they still set up now against the top sides and it's the best way to utilize their personnel. Bad tactics would've been to play an attacking formation against Spain. Maradona should've took a leaf out of his book, as opposed to the all out attack approach he adopted that was doomed for failure. There's no comparison between the 2 managers in terms of abilty to organize or ability to actually select a team.
Quierroz is currently in Iran I think, which says a lot.
Let's see what happens when they reach a tournament again. Other plays have achieved more with weaker set ups.Again, it's sort of hard to have much affect when your team is devoid of any sort of balance or platform for the better players to perform. Look at his form since that tournament, they seem to have found a proper system now and he's scoring plenty.
-- Tue May 28, 2013 12:30 pm --
I hear this often, but based on what don't you rate international football. Do you agree of disagree that Germany are better than Bayern? Italy better Juventus, Spain better than Barcelona? France around the level of PSG? Holland much, much better than Ajax. Belgium much, much better than any of the Belgian teams? Croatia are decent and that is before we look at the South American teams.mancity25 said:I don't rate international football. I personally think the Champions League is a lot harder to win than the World Cup.
So for me, Messi doesn't have to prove anything.
MCFC1993 said:supercrystal7 said:Messi's career for his club is not really much better than Pele's and we all know Ronaldo's career was wrecked by injury. Messi's internation set up being poor is a complete myth. With the players he has available he should be able to do better.conormcfc said:They had, yeah. But they both played in far better international set-ups. And Messi has already surpassed both their club accomplishments at the age of 25 and me personally I consider years of club football over a month of internationals once every 4 years.
No Portugal managed to get to the semi final in 06 and lost on penalties against Spain in the Euro's with the same group of players. The Portugal team would have been better attacking. His record as manager was terrible.Those tactics employed by Queiroz were perfectly reasonable. The only way they'd beat top teams was by putting people behind the ball and playing on the counter. That's how they still set up now against the top sides and it's the best way to utilize their personnel. Bad tactics would've been to play an attacking formation against Spain. Maradona should've took a leaf out of his book, as opposed to the all out attack approach he adopted that was doomed for failure. There's no comparison between the 2 managers in terms of abilty to organize or ability to actually select a team.
Quierroz is currently in Iran I think, which says a lot.
Let's see what happens when they reach a tournament again. Other plays have achieved more with weaker set ups.Again, it's sort of hard to have much affect when your team is devoid of any sort of balance or platform for the better players to perform. Look at his form since that tournament, they seem to have found a proper system now and he's scoring plenty.
-- Tue May 28, 2013 12:30 pm --
I hear this often, but based on what don't you rate international football. Do you agree of disagree that Germany are better than Bayern? Italy better Juventus, Spain better than Barcelona? France around the level of PSG? Holland much, much better than Ajax. Belgium much, much better than any of the Belgian teams? Croatia are decent and that is before we look at the South American teams.mancity25 said:I don't rate international football. I personally think the Champions League is a lot harder to win than the World Cup.
So for me, Messi doesn't have to prove anything.
To be honest i'd argue that Bayern are better than Germany.
I also agree that the CL is a better standard of football. In the champions league least all the best players play or have the chance to play in that competition.