Middle East Conflict (merged)

[Blue Mist]

I agree with a couple of additional points. There will also never be peace while terrorist organisations like Hamas deny Israel's right to exist, and they continue to use the Palestinian people as cannon fodder.

I've said it before but it's the minority of extremists on both sides who are at the core of the problem.

Hamas will always thrive as long as innocents are subjugated.
Do you believe Israel has the right to expand into land that was never 'given' to them as part of the original agreement?

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Hamas will always thrive as long as innocents are subjugated.
Do you believe Israel has the right to expand into land that was never 'given' to them as part of the original agreement?

The simple answer is no, as it's made a bad situation worse, but as usual it's always more complex than a simple answer. Back in 1967, Israel finally had some defence in depth against belligerent Arab neighbours , so I can understand why it didn't want to go back to the pre-1967 situation.

But it what it should have then done, in hindsight, was to give the West Bank Palestinians some element of self-governance, which the Jordanians denied them after 1948, while retaining some oversight. That way, there's a chance of decent governance, instead of the appalling leadership they've suffered from the corruption and general uselessness of the Palestinian Authority.

I've always believed that the key to solving the problem is economic. Give people wealth, and some element of control over their lives, and they're less bothered about fighting. On the other hand, if you keep them poor and subjugated, you get what you've got now.

 

[Bluemoon_420]

No such place. That was the name of the territory controlled by the British Mandate. It ceased to exist after the Mandate ended in May 1948. After the War of Independence the West Bank was then annexed by Jordan.

Ah the good old Zionist logic, that Palestine did not exist because they didn’t have a currency, national boundaries, etc. By that logic you would also deny that the Native Americans existed, because they didn’t have nation states recognisable to the Europeans. And indeed, that is how the colonisation of the Americas happened - violently, and bordering on genocide, and above all, grounded in racism! Sounds familiar!!!

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Ah the good old Zionist logic, that Palestine did not exist because they didn’t have a currency, national boundaries, etc. By that logic you would also deny that the Native Americans existed, because they didn’t have nation states recognisable to the Europeans. And indeed, that is how the colonisation of the Americas happened - violently, and bordering on genocide, and above all, grounded in racism! Sounds familiar!!!

Do you do stand-up? You should as that's one of the funniest replies I've ever read. I've actually been on the Navajo Reservation as it happens and met a few Native Americans. So I know they exist. And their treatment has been (and still is) appalling. But what should the European settlers who created the USA do? All go home to Ireland, Germany, Poland, the UK, Italy, Spain etc? Yet you'd be quite happy if all the Jews went "home". Are the descendants of Jewish migrants not, by your definition, Palestinians? Some of them would be third or fourth generation now. It gets very dangerous if you start extending that logic to, say, the UK?

But you're right that Palestine did actually exist, as it was the Roman name for an exclusively Jewish state that the natives called Judea. But after the Romans put down the revolt, captured Jerusalem and destroyed the Second Temple in 70AD, there has never been a self-governing entity there. Until 1948 of course. So you can make up all the history you like but you can't change facts.

 

[inbetween]

Hamas will always thrive as long as innocents are subjugated.
Do you believe Israel has the right to expand into land that was never 'given' to them as part of the original agreement?

It isn't quite as simple as that. Hamas and its allying nations don't believe that Israel has the right to exist. The Hamas charter of 1988 (now updated in 2017 to remove the anti-semitism!) literally advocated jihad and genocide against Jewish people, not to the old borders but to restore Palestine and remove the Israeli state.

Israel is never going to agree to its own extermination.

 

[Blue Mist]

It isn't quite as simple as that. Hamas and its allying nations don't believe that Israel has the right to exist. The Hamas charter of 1988 (now updated in 2017 to remove the anti-semitism!) literally advocated jihad and genocide against Jewish people, not to the old borders but to restore Palestine and remove the Israeli state.

Israel is never going to agree to its own extermination.

You haven't read or understood what I said. As long as their is conflict as long as Palestinians are being subjugated then Hamas will be there.
How are Palestinians ever going to agree any kind of peace if Israel continue to expand.
That said, I fully accept even if Israel returned to its original agreed borders, there will still be violence because as you say, some do not want the state of Israel to exist. However, it would be a starting point for a possible peaceful solution.

 

[Blue Mist]

Sadly another attack goes virtually unnoticed by the world. This time a Palestinian gunman attacked a bar in Tel Aviv killed two Israelis and injured 12. He was later shot dead by security forces.
The Palestinian was from the occupied West Bank.
What ever the rights and wrongs argued by both sides, until politicians start acting like human beings, innocent people will continue to die.

 

[mat]

I have a radical solution.

Swap the scousers for Palestinians.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

I have a radical solution.

Swap the scousers for Palestinians.

will we have to deal with them playing victim too and claiming that deaths from Hamas bombings weren't their responsibility because the Israelis occupation made them do it and they were somehow helpless to avoid their own actions?

 

[Blue Mist]

I have a radical solution.

Swap the scousers for Palestinians.

Yes, for once Mat you gave posted something sensible (giggle)