Middle East Conflict (merged)

[bluethrunthru]

Apart from a few council estates, the only group of people that use fireworks for celebrations all year round. :)

Hopefully no kids get caught with sparkers or they might have to face a trial before military court and 20 years in an Israeli prison.

when Patels law goes through if your local council estate setting off rockets on NYE just ring the Police and tell them they are causing you alarm and distress - should get a few of them jailed. Don't bother if its from the "posh" houses on the private estate - they can't possibly cause you distress.....

 

[Blue Mist]

Israeli settlements built on Palestinian land are considered to be illegal under international law. There are currently between 600,000 and 750,000 Israeli settlers living in at least 250 settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalm.

But nobody says nowt.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Israeli settlements built on Palestinian land are considered to be illegal under international law. There are currently between 600,000 and 750,000 Israeli settlers living in at least 250 settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalm.

But nobody says nowt.

Plenty is said. But don't kid yourself that Amnesty is some completely impartial body. It has an obsession with Israel that dwarfs its focus on truly evil nations.

Here's some reasons why Israel is NOT an "apartheid state":

1. It's a fully functioning democracy where ALL citizens, regardless of ethnic origin or religion, can participate in the democratic process. That isn't apartheid.
2. Citizenship is open to Jews, Muslims, Christians & others. That isn't apartheid.
3. There are Muslim/Arab political parties who have seats in the Knesset and who are part of the ruling coalition. That isn't apartheid.
4. Minorities, including LGBTQ people, are protected by law, as they are here. That isn't apartheid.
5. Public transport isn't segregated. That isn't apartheid.
6. Education isn't segregated. That isn't apartheid.
7. Arabic is an official language. Thst isn't apartheid.
8. Arabic media outlets are plentiful and free from censorship. That isn't apartheid.
9. There are Arabs in public offices, including a justice of the Supreme Court. That isn't apartheid.
10. Arabs even serve in the armed forces.

The Amnesty report specifically says that the situation in Israel is NOT analogous to South Africa. "Apartheid' these days is defined as discrimination on religious, ethnic, political, social or economic grounds. If you look at places like the UAE, for example, there's a distinct difference in the treatment of Emiratis, the more educated, professional class of expats and what's referred to as migrant labour. There is appalling discrimination against non-Muslims in Pakistan, and against Muslims in India. And then there's black people in the USA and our own attitude in the UK towards genuine refugees and, since Brexit, any non UK citizens. You could even argue, quite convincingly, that kids living on inncer city, northern council estates in poverty, suffer from apartheid. If they didn't, we wouldn't need a Dept of Levelling Up would we?

The fact is that Israel is a technologically advanced, economically successful, liberal, tolerant democracy, pretty well alone among a sea of backward, undemocratic, illiberal, underdeveloped, poorly run countries. The UAE is probably its nearest equivalent in the Middle East but even that successful state is a long way behind.

That of course doesn't mean the situation in the West Bank is good (it certainly isn't) and should be ignored. But let's remember why that barrier exists; it's because of the wave of suicide and other terrorist attacks during the two Intifadas. But ask any Israeli muslim whether they'd rather live in Israel or somewhere like Iraq, Lebanon, Syria or Xinjiang in China. You know what the answer would be.

 

[malg]

Israeli settlements built on Palestinian land are considered to be illegal under international law. There are currently between 600,000 and 750,000 Israeli settlers living in at least 250 settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalm.

But nobody says nowt.

To be fair, I think quite a lot is said about it. I certainly see it reported in the stuff I read.

 

[Blue Mist]

Plenty is said. But don't kid yourself that Amnesty is some completely impartial body. It has an obsession with Israel that dwarfs its focus on truly evil nations.

Here's some reasons why Israel is NOT an "apartheid state":

1. It's a fully functioning democracy where ALL citizens, regardless of ethnic origin or religion, can participate in the democratic process. That isn't apartheid.
2. Citizenship is open to Jews, Muslims, Christians & others. That isn't apartheid.
3. There are Muslim/Arab political parties who have seats in the Knesset and who are part of the ruling coalition. That isn't apartheid.
4. Minorities, including LGBTQ people, are protected by law, as they are here. That isn't apartheid.
5. Public transport isn't segregated. That isn't apartheid.
6. Education isn't segregated. That isn't apartheid.
7. Arabic is an official language. Thst isn't apartheid.
8. Arabic media outlets are plentiful and free from censorship. That isn't apartheid.
9. There are Arabs in public offices, including a justice of the Supreme Court. That isn't apartheid.
10. Arabs even serve in the armed forces.

The Amnesty report specifically says that the situation in Israel is NOT analogous to South Africa. "Apartheid' these days is defined as discrimination on religious, ethnic, political, social or economic grounds. If you look at places like the UAE, for example, there's a distinct difference in the treatment of Emiratis, the more educated, professional class of expats and what's referred to as migrant labour. There is appalling discrimination against non-Muslims in Pakistan, and against Muslims in India. And then there's black people in the USA and our own attitude in the UK towards genuine refugees and, since Brexit, any non UK citizens. You could even argue, quite convincingly, that kids living on inncer city, northern council estates in poverty, suffer from apartheid. If they didn't, we wouldn't need a Dept of Levelling Up would we?

The fact is that Israel is a technologically advanced, economically successful, liberal, tolerant democracy, pretty well alone among a sea of backward, undemocratic, illiberal, underdeveloped, poorly run countries. The UAE is probably its nearest equivalent in the Middle East but even that successful state is a long way behind.

That of course doesn't mean the situation in the West Bank is good (it certainly isn't) and should be ignored. But let's remember why that barrier exists; it's because of the wave of suicide and other terrorist attacks during the two Intifadas. But ask any Israeli muslim whether they'd rather live in Israel or somewhere like Iraq, Lebanon, Syria or Xinjiang in China. You know what the answer would be.

Have you answered the wrong post ? I commented on the number of Israelis who live illegally in Palestine. They live there with the permission and support of the Israeli government.
I have previously stated that Amnesty said it was an apartheid regime but didn't get a reply. I have now read your reply and forgive me for smiling when you say Amnesty is not impartial. I would simply say you are bound to say that. What reason would Amnesty have for being pro Palestinian/anti Israel?
They, Amnesty set out in great detail how they came to their findings and I have no reason to distrust them.
You mention suicide bombings, My main focus is on innocent Palestinian civilians dying at the hands of an occupying army and I have mentioned it in this thread previously.
I mentioned in another post how I have read books to ensure or at least attempt to ensure, I was knowledgeable about the situation. You tried to belittle it with your reply.
I do not set out to annoy, upset or offend any BM poster when I post in any thread. Palestine and the Rhohinga people in Burma are issues that I care deeply about. I cannot fight or highlight every injustice in the world but I support law abiding civilian Palestinians in their quest for a peaceful life in the country.
I am not proud of the British governments lies to the Palestinians all those years ago either. Like Burma in 1947 and Ukraine 2022 we treat people appallingly as though they don't matter.

 

[Blue Mist]

To be fair, I think quite a lot is said about it. I certainly see it reported in the stuff I read.

There is little said in the main stream media and I was also meaning the politicians.
How can there ever be a peace if they don't address the issues.

 

[bluethrunthru]

1/ - don't like Galloway
2/ - remember when QT was a proper debate?

 

[idahoblues]

Have you answered the wrong post ? I commented on the number of Israelis who live illegally in Palestine. They live there with the permission and support of the Israeli government.
I have previously stated that Amnesty said it was an apartheid regime but didn't get a reply. I have now read your reply and forgive me for smiling when you say Amnesty is not impartial. I would simply say you are bound to say that. What reason would Amnesty have for being pro Palestinian/anti Israel?
They, Amnesty set out in great detail how they came to their findings and I have no reason to distrust them.
You mention suicide bombings, My main focus is on innocent Palestinian civilians dying at the hands of an occupying army and I have mentioned it in this thread previously.
I mentioned in another post how I have read books to ensure or at least attempt to ensure, I was knowledgeable about the situation. You tried to belittle it with your reply.
I do not set out to annoy, upset or offend any BM poster when I post in any thread. Palestine and the Rhohinga people in Burma are issues that I care deeply about. I cannot fight or highlight every injustice in the world but I support law abiding civilian Palestinians in their quest for a peaceful life in the country.
I am not proud of the British governments lies to the Palestinians all those years ago either. Like Burma in 1947 and Ukraine 2022 we treat people appallingly as though they don't matter.

You should be more ashamed at your horrible record of not buying beer

 

[Blue Mist]

1/ - don't like Galloway
2/ - remember when QT was a proper debate?

He makes a very good point about freedom of speech.
Because you support peaceful Palestinians you are labelled an anti semitic.
Because you say the phrase 'From the river to the sea Palestine will be free' you are a criminal.
In fact, he made several very good points and like you, I don't like the man.

 

[west didsblue]

He makes a very good point about freedom of speech.
Because you support peaceful Palestinians you are labelled an anti semitic.
Because you say the phrase 'From the river to the sea Palestine will be free' you are a criminal.
In fact, he made several very good points and like you, I don't like the man.

The phrase "From the river to the sea" is commonly understood by many as a call for Israel to be replaced entirely by a Palestinian state. The fact that you have it as your location in your profile suggests to me that you don't believe in Israel's right to exist at all which makes you an extremist.