Middle East Conflict

[Vic]

Who’s going to de-radicalize them?

Aren't they opposed to obligatory military service? And normal work?

 

[BayernMan]

Aren't they opposed to obligatory military service? And normal work?

Looks like yes but it’s being debated…

https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...of equality,ultra-Orthodox expires next month.

 

[BayernMan]

Just more collateral damage…

 

[Damocles]

Surprised at this thread.

Some borderline anti-Semitism here but I understand its an emotional issue and sometimes people don't consider the phrasing. That's fine, we all mess that up.

I would suggest that the dichotomy that has developed that Palestine are an innocent population/Israel is a genocidal force vs Israel is an innocent being attacked by Hamas terrorists lacks a lot of nuance.

 

[Irwell]

Surprised at this thread.

Some borderline anti-Semitism here but I understand its an emotional issue and sometimes people don't consider the phrasing. That's fine, we all mess that up.

I would suggest that the dichotomy that has developed that Palestine are an innocent population/Israel is a genocidal force vs Israel is an innocent being attacked by Hamas terrorists lacks a lot of nuance.

I'm not sure if you were being disingenuous here or if you just made a mistake, but I will assume the latter. Your post includes the common mistake/tactic of conflating the state and state apparatus of Israel with the Israeli people. This is a common tactic of the apologists for the state of Israel, as seen multiple times in this thread, precisely because it creates these kinds of false dichotomy.

During the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan there were accusations that the UK had committed war crimes. This was political criticism of our state and state apparatus, not a criticism of British people and most definitely not racist. The same is true of criticism of the policies of the state of Israel and the actions of its state apparatus. It is political criticism, not criticism of the Israeli people or anti-Semitism.

Your post should have had the same level of disambiguation for Israel as it did for Hamas/Palestinians. If it had then your two positions would have been "Genocidal Israel vs. innocent Palestinians" and "Terrorist Hamas vs. innocent Israelis". These two positions are not mutually exclusive and introduce the nuance you think the positions people take are lacking. I would hazard a guess that most if not all people in here arguing the case for the Palestinians accept both of these positions as being true.

I have made the point in here a couple of times, but this conflation is dangerous. You possibly might not have conflated the two in your head and it might have been a slip in your phrasing, but there will be people who read these things and do conflate the two leading to more people not being able to differentiate between them.

On the one hand this conflation leads to them then taking an anti-Israeli position rather than simply opposing the policies of Israel, which leads to a rise in anti-Semitism. On the other hand it leaves us in a position where those responsible for these policies and actions can make noises about anti-Semitism in order to stifle opposition, the start of a slippery slope to authoritarianism.

 

[Alvin-blue-qhd]

I don't think Hamas is a terrorist organization. Some actions of Hamas are in line with the definition of terrorist attacks, but Hamas exists because an independent Palestine cannot be established, and the Palestinian people have suffered from injustice for a long time. Hamas should be called a resistance organization rather than a terrorist organization. Calling Hamas a terrorist organization is a smear on the Palestinian people's resistance movement, and a beautification of Israeli oppression.

 

[Irwell]

I don't think Hamas is a terrorist organization. Some actions of Hamas are in line with the definition of terrorist attacks, but Hamas exists because an independent Palestine cannot be established, and the Palestinian people have suffered from injustice for a long time. Hamas should be called a resistance organization rather than a terrorist organization. Calling Hamas a terrorist organization is a smear on the Palestinian people's resistance movement, and a beautification of Israeli oppression.

I would say they are both. The second you start targeting civilians you are a terrorist, regardless of your cause.

 

[KS55]

I don't think Hamas is a terrorist organization. Some actions of Hamas are in line with the definition of terrorist attacks, but Hamas exists because an independent Palestine cannot be established, and the Palestinian people have suffered from injustice for a long time. Hamas should be called a resistance organization rather than a terrorist organization. Calling Hamas a terrorist organization is a smear on the Palestinian people's resistance movement, and a beautification of Israeli oppression.

The Palestinian resistance is a dual track effort similar to the IRA’s bullet and ballot box strategy.
The political wing is Hezbollah and the military wing is Hamas. They are both part of the same organisation.
Hamas is designated a terrorist organisation by the UK gov.
Purposes and methods are often conflated in these discussions: terrorism is a method, while liberation is an objective. A “freedom fighter” becomes a terrorist the moment his methods include targeting non-combatant civilians.

 

[Alvin-blue-qhd]

I would say they are both. The second you start targeting civilians you are a terrorist, regardless of your cause.

"Terrorism" is a relatively new term, arising against the backdrop of a relatively stable international order after World War II. For example, terrorism in the United States. However, in the case of Israel and Palestine, the situation in this region is extremely hostile and unstable. It is difficult to judge whether an act is terrorism simply by whether it attacks civilians. For example, when the United States dropped two nuclear bombs on Japan during World War II, killing a large number of civilians, I do not consider that to be terrorism.

 

[Alvin-blue-qhd]

The Palestinian resistance is a dual track effort similar to the IRA’s bullet and ballot box strategy.
The political wing is Hezbollah and the military wing is Hamas. They are both part of the same organisation.
Hamas is designated a terrorist organisation by the UK gov.
Purposes and methods are often conflated in these discussions: terrorism is a method, while liberation is an objective. A “freedom fighter” becomes a terrorist the moment his methods include targeting non-combatant civilians.

The Chinese government does not define Hamas as a terrorist organization, that's same with the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Different countries have different views. The Chinese government actually hopes to see reconciliation between Hamas and other Palestinian factions.

We hope to see more reconciliation among the various political factions within Palestine, a ceasefire, the establishment of an independent Palestinian state, the establishment of normal diplomatic relations with Israel, and the achievement of long-term peace in the Middle East region. We do not want to put Palestine under a microscope and try to kill part of it. That will only further worsen the situation.

But that's just a Chinese perspective, and everyone knows that in the Middle East, China's perspective is irrelevant. Because we don't have military bases and aircraft carriers, Israel won't listen to our advice.

It's ironic. People spend a lot of time debating about terrorism, the history of Jerusalem, antisemitism, what this is and what that is. However, in the real world, what really matters are military bases and aircraft carriers. I believe people can see that I don't like the US government. They have more than 900 military bases around the world. But when we really need the US military to do something, to maintain world peace, they stand with Israel.

Shame.