Aren't they opposed to obligatory military service? And normal work?
Middle East Conflict
- Thread starter The blue phantom
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Aren't they opposed to obligatory military service? And normal work?
Surprised at this thread.
Some borderline anti-Semitism here but I understand its an emotional issue and sometimes people don't consider the phrasing. That's fine, we all mess that up.
I would suggest that the dichotomy that has developed that Palestine are an innocent population/Israel is a genocidal force vs Israel is an innocent being attacked by Hamas terrorists lacks a lot of nuance.
Some borderline anti-Semitism here but I understand its an emotional issue and sometimes people don't consider the phrasing. That's fine, we all mess that up.
I would suggest that the dichotomy that has developed that Palestine are an innocent population/Israel is a genocidal force vs Israel is an innocent being attacked by Hamas terrorists lacks a lot of nuance.
Irwell
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if you were being disingenuous here or if you just made a mistake, but I will assume the latter. Your post includes the common mistake/tactic of conflating the state and state apparatus of Israel with the Israeli people. This is a common tactic of the apologists for the state of Israel, as seen multiple times in this thread, precisely because it creates these kinds of false dichotomy.
During the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan there were accusations that the UK had committed war crimes. This was political criticism of our state and state apparatus, not a criticism of British people and most definitely not racist. The same is true of criticism of the policies of the state of Israel and the actions of its state apparatus. It is political criticism, not criticism of the Israeli people or anti-Semitism.
Your post should have had the same level of disambiguation for Israel as it did for Hamas/Palestinians. If it had then your two positions would have been "Genocidal Israel vs. innocent Palestinians" and "Terrorist Hamas vs. innocent Israelis". These two positions are not mutually exclusive and introduce the nuance you think the positions people take are lacking. I would hazard a guess that most if not all people in here arguing the case for the Palestinians accept both of these positions as being true.
I have made the point in here a couple of times, but this conflation is dangerous. You possibly might not have conflated the two in your head and it might have been a slip in your phrasing, but there will be people who read these things and do conflate the two leading to more people not being able to differentiate between them.
On the one hand this conflation leads to them then taking an anti-Israeli position rather than simply opposing the policies of Israel, which leads to a rise in anti-Semitism. On the other hand it leaves us in a position where those responsible for these policies and actions can make noises about anti-Semitism in order to stifle opposition, the start of a slippery slope to authoritarianism.
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Alvin-blue-qhd
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I don't think Hamas is a terrorist organization. Some actions of Hamas are in line with the definition of terrorist attacks, but Hamas exists because an independent Palestine cannot be established, and the Palestinian people have suffered from injustice for a long time. Hamas should be called a resistance organization rather than a terrorist organization. Calling Hamas a terrorist organization is a smear on the Palestinian people's resistance movement, and a beautification of Israeli oppression.
Irwell
Well-Known Member
I would say they are both. The second you start targeting civilians you are a terrorist, regardless of your cause.
The Palestinian resistance is a dual track effort similar to the IRA’s bullet and ballot box strategy.
The political wing is Hezbollah and the military wing is Hamas. They are both part of the same organisation.
Hamas is designated a terrorist organisation by the UK gov.
Purposes and methods are often conflated in these discussions: terrorism is a method, while liberation is an objective. A “freedom fighter” becomes a terrorist the moment his methods include targeting non-combatant civilians.
Alvin-blue-qhd
Well-Known Member
"Terrorism" is a relatively new term, arising against the backdrop of a relatively stable international order after World War II. For example, terrorism in the United States. However, in the case of Israel and Palestine, the situation in this region is extremely hostile and unstable. It is difficult to judge whether an act is terrorism simply by whether it attacks civilians. For example, when the United States dropped two nuclear bombs on Japan during World War II, killing a large number of civilians, I do not consider that to be terrorism.
Alvin-blue-qhd
Well-Known Member
The Chinese government does not define Hamas as a terrorist organization, that's same with the Taliban in Afghanistan.
Different countries have different views. The Chinese government actually hopes to see reconciliation between Hamas and other Palestinian factions.
We hope to see more reconciliation among the various political factions within Palestine, a ceasefire, the establishment of an independent Palestinian state, the establishment of normal diplomatic relations with Israel, and the achievement of long-term peace in the Middle East region. We do not want to put Palestine under a microscope and try to kill part of it. That will only further worsen the situation.
But that's just a Chinese perspective, and everyone knows that in the Middle East, China's perspective is irrelevant. Because we don't have military bases and aircraft carriers, Israel won't listen to our advice.
It's ironic. People spend a lot of time debating about terrorism, the history of Jerusalem, antisemitism, what this is and what that is. However, in the real world, what really matters are military bases and aircraft carriers. I believe people can see that I don't like the US government. They have more than 900 military bases around the world. But when we really need the US military to do something, to maintain world peace, they stand with Israel.
Shame.
An independent Palestine has no hope unless:
1. Netanyahu is deposed. He has referred to the Palestinians as “the enemy” for twenty years and has said that doing a deal with them is out of the question.
2. The USA does more than pay lip service to the two state solution. Real pressure needs to be brought on a recalcitrant Israeli gov. USA has plenty of leverage in its financial support for Israeli defence.
1. Netanyahu is deposed. He has referred to the Palestinians as “the enemy” for twenty years and has said that doing a deal with them is out of the question.
2. The USA does more than pay lip service to the two state solution. Real pressure needs to be brought on a recalcitrant Israeli gov. USA has plenty of leverage in its financial support for Israeli defence.
And that post lacks a lot of nuance.
west didsblue
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Hezbollah is a political, military and terrorist entity based in Lebanon which also operates in Syria. It’s separate to Hamas which is the equivalent political, military and terrorist group in Gaza. They both also act as Iranian proxies in addition to having their own agendas. The same also applies to the Houthis in Yemen.
I'm not surprised at all. We live in a world where everyone who voted to leave a trading group is called racist, everyone who supports Israel is Islamaphobic and everyone who supports Palestine is called anti-semitic. What about Liverpool fans, boo the National Anthem because it's royalist but self identify as European Royalty!
Saddam killed nearly 200,000 Kurds in Iraq but thousands marched to leave him in power because we shouldn't interfere. Now the same thousands are marching so that we should interfere with Palestine. I'm actually with an elderly Jewish UK gentleman who was interviewed early in the war on one of the talk stations. He asked where all the demonstrators were when 33,000 Syrian children were being murdered/killed. His conclusion, and I think this is probably true, that to many, it's not the deaths of innocents that is the concern but the political affiliation of the killer.
One final point, When the UN or whatever they were called then decided to split the area into Israel/Palestine one of the 'nuances' they had to consider was that one side contained 95% of the wealth and moneymakers and the other side all of the poor. If you think about that, splitting any country into rich and poor will always cause resentment.
I don't think anyone marching wants us to send British troops to Gaza.
Re the Syrian civil war, against whom would one protest? It was hard to protest anyway when (after Iraq) most who would protest had argued against western intervention, and that argument had prevailed.
Re the "moneymakers", which side are they? (In a daft paragraph, by the way.)
The blue phantom
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cucumberman
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Back to Gaza will reminisce the time when Haganah Irgun and Lehi attacking British troops. We abandoned Palestine quicktime in 1948 because of the increasing tension and animosity and hatred of Zionists against us.
Never forget that inside the majority moderate and ambivalent Jews who longed for the State of Israel and willing to wait for a political and win-win solution for us, Jews and Palestinians, there was that terror cell called Lehi. The cell that sought partnership with Nazis to throw us out of at that time British mandate Palestine.
They were very willing to join forces with Nazis.They signed the Havaara Agreement, they conducted assassinations on our soldiers and our prime ministers. Zettler and Stern were just the two of the leaders of Lehi, as the offshoot of Irgun, open to ally with Nazis.
Remember that the first steam ship (SS Tel Aviv) of Jews moving to Palestine was hoisting which flag.
How about that commemorative coin…
And here’s a list of British soldiers and officers killed in Palestine by Zionist Lehi before the 1st Nakba.
- T.G. Martin, British Police Sergeant. Executed at tennis court, Sep 1946
- Major John Doran, and a number of British soldiers. Food Control Office bombed, Sep 1946
- British soldiers dead and wounded by hundreds. Bombed the cars of British soldiers during curfew, 1946
- British soldiers killed by dozens. Car bomb attack. Dec 1946
- British police sergeant. Shot and killed outside of police station. The police station then after bombed and policemen killed. Jan 1947
- British officers killed. Barclays Bank. Feb 1947
- A British officer and 3 policemen killed. Commanders Office. Apr 1947
- Assistant Superintendent of Police Albert Conquest. Killed by submachine gun. Spins Store. Apr 1947.
- British soldiers killed, because in response to British detaining Lehi youth Alex Rubowitz, May 1947.
- Major Roy Farran’s brother, killed by mail bomb. own house.
- 50 British soldiers and policemen. Killed by bombing. Ben Yehuda Street. Jan 1948
- George White and William Alfred Harrison, British bomb experts requested by Arabs to help defuse the Zionist bombs. They failed, bombed exploded and killed the two British Experts and Arabs. Mar 1948.
- British soldiers and officers killed. Romema, Apr 1948
- 338 British soldiers killed throughout the war. The british soldiers left Palestine immediately days after Israel Independence, 14 May 1948 4:00PM.
After the IDF was established, the Lehi, Irgun and Haganah registered into the IDF. In years after, prominent leaders held high government offices, including Prime Ministers - Yitzhak Shamir (formerly Lehi leader who attacked British in Palestine), Menachem Begin (formerly Irgun leader who attacked British in Palestine, including bombing the British HQ in King David Hotel).
In the 1940s, our troops were defensive of Arabs and against the mass immigration of illegal Jew refugees. The process was meant to be through legal means. But that is against the Zionist terror cells‘ perception of the Promised Land. It’s not a surprise that after the Israel independence, the Nakba happened after.
Most importantly, do not conflate all Jews as complying to the right wing Greater Zionism. As early as 1910 that US Jews were against the Zionism and the establishment of Israel.
Cheadle_hulmeBlue
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A resistance organisation? An organisation that butchers innocent people, committed one of the worst terrorist acts in recent memory and thinks Jewish people should be wiped off the map.
Can I have some of what your smoking. Do you think that about the person who blew up Manchester arena? Isis?
What the Isreal government doing is awful, but you can’t honestly defend Hamas and then suggest they represent the Palestinian people. Ridiculous take
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