Middle East Conflict

I don't really know what it means for a Jewish American to have self-determination. If this means they have a right to go and live in Israel where they've never lived, that's a right being denied to Palestinians who had lived there. If it means American Jews can go and live in illegal settlements in the West Bank, they don't have that right.

And I remind you that accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations, is antisemitic.
Forget the settlements for a moment, would you have a problem with a Jewish American who decides to live in Israel full stop? The answer surely must be no? However, if Israel did not exist then this would be impossible so a Jewish state must exist and indeed also coexist.

This is the right to self-determination, the creation of Israel and ability to settle there fulfils that right for Jewish people of any creed. Denying this right outright is the aim of the anti-zionist movement and is regarded as anti-semitic (at least in western recognised definitions).

The illegal settlements are a matter of criticism towards the Israeli government and its policy for implementing how people come to fulfil their right. It should indeed not deny the rights of the Palestinian people, if it does then the fault of that lies with the Israeli government and not the people exercising their rights or the simple fact that the right exists.

As I said previously, there's a reason why Israel contains people of many different creeds and backgrounds, it's because a Jewish state did not exist until the last 100 years and now it does. Jewish people had otherwise chosen to settle in many places such as the US because they were safe there. Obviously many Jewish people have now chosen to settle in Israel however many choose to stay in countries as is their right as citizens of those countries. This is what self-determination is.

In terms of what we can recognise and what is morally right the Palestinians should have a right to coexist within a separate state alongside Israel however this has never been agreed. A Palestinian state cannot supersede the existence of Israel nor vice versa... And here lies the problem....
 
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Forget the settlements for a moment, would you have a problem with a Jewish American who decides to live in Israel full stop? The answer surely must be no? However, if Israel did not exist then this would be impossible so a Jewish state must exist and indeed also coexist.

This is the right to self-determination, the creation of Israel and ability to settle there fulfils that right for Jewish people of any creed. Denying this right outright is the aim of the anti-zionist movement and is regarded as anti-semitic (at least in western recognised definitions).

The illegal settlements are a matter of criticism towards the Israeli government and its policy for implementing how people come to fulfil their right. It should indeed not deny the rights of the Palestinian people, if it does then the fault of that lies with the Israeli government and not the people exercising their rights or the simple fact that the right exists.

As I said previously, there's a reason why Israel contains people of many different creeds and backgrounds, it's because a Jewish state did not exist until the last 100 years and now it does. Jewish people had otherwise chosen to settle in many places such as the US because they were safe there. Obviously many Jewish people have now chosen to settle in Israel however many choose to stay in countries as is their right as citizens of those countries. This is what self-determination is.

In terms of what we can recognise and what is morally right the Palestinians should have a right to coexist within a separate state alongside Israel however this has never been agreed. A Palestinian state cannot supersede the existence of Israel nor vice versa... And here lies the problem....
I can't be bothered picking all the holes in that. "Forget the settlements" - yes I have a problem if someone is going to Israel to support and vote for a government that supports the settlements. The creation of the state of Israel was against the self-determination of the people they displaced. And anti-Zionism was primarily (originally) a Jewish thing, so cannot be automatically antisemitic (and the IHRA definition and examples don't mention Zionism).

Jump to the last sentence that a Palestinian state cannot supersede the existence of Israel nor vice versa. The vice versa is happening before your eyes.
 
 
I can't be bothered picking all the holes in that. "Forget the settlements" - yes I have a problem if someone is going to Israel to support and vote for a government that supports the settlements. The creation of the state of Israel was against the self-determination of the people they displaced. And anti-Zionism was primarily (originally) a Jewish thing, so cannot be automatically antisemitic (and the IHRA definition and examples don't mention Zionism).

Jump to the last sentence that a Palestinian state cannot supersede the existence of Israel nor vice versa. The vice versa is happening before your eyes.
I don't really see the point in this argument. The fault of this lies with the politics of the Israeli government which I criticise and do not support. Not everybody in Israel supports Netanyahu.

Let's try to avoid that given the hypocrisy that you question Israeli nationalist votes for Netanyahu but you don't question the Palestinian nationalist support for the current terrorist authority in Gaza.

I don't know what the solution to the current problem is but it is not the removal of Israel as a nation state or the prevention of Jewish people from exercising their rights. If that right is removed then what are we talking about other than the argument that Israel should not exist?

Or are you saying that instead Israel should be some mashed up state of whoever lived there before and not much else given they're now all banned from living there and can't be allowed the right to vote etc?
 
This is the crux of the issue. Nothing can be solved until this is discussed not forgotten.
If all the settlements were returned and a Palestinian state established on those lines with an Israeli state existing alongside then would there be peace? Really? Is that what Hamas is demanding?
 
If all the settlements were returned and a Palestinian state established on those lines with an Israeli state existing alongside then would there be peace? Really? Is that what Hamas is demanding?

To be honest groups like Hamas are irrelevant because they source their influence through a lack of Palestinians right of self determination. A two state or one state solution will not be an instant miracle cure but it will go a LONG way to improving things by undercutting their influence. Most importantly it’s never been tried before but we do have a long track record of what results 75 years of military occupation yields.
 
Why do some other indigenous people of the Middle East have to pay for crimes committed by European bigotry towards Jews?
Because the winners write the new rules and the losers have to live with them…until another war changes that. So far, it hasn’t.
 

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