Middle East Conflict

[Vic]

If all the settlements were returned and a Palestinian state established on those lines with an Israeli state existing alongside then would there be peace? Really? Is that what Hamas is demanding?

Well, they've effectively accepted since 2017 the concept of a Palestinian state in part of Palestine, but not that they would give up the claim to the whole land, from the river to the sea (just like Netanyahu hasn't given up believing that Israel should expand from the river to the sea). Whether that means peace is another matter. But it's 50 years since Cyprus was divided and hostilities ceased, so unless you want to continue the genocide to "eliminate" Hamas, it might seem an improvement on the present situation. (Cue the Israeli spokesman today claiming that what Israel is doing in Gaza is like what we'd do if someone invaded Cornwall, which is a crazy comparison... "In order to liberate Cornwall, we destroyed everything")

Hamas could join PA in new Gaza government, support two-state solution - report

In contradiction to a slew of previous public comments, Hamas reportedly is receptive to joining the PA on should there be a two-state solution on the political horizon.

www.jpost.com

 

[BayernMan]

Piers is a tit but I’ll give him props here even if it’s for show. The 30 second pause around the 2 min mark felt like several hours…l

 

[BayernMan]

You tell em Miller!

 

[ChicagoBlue]

But he is right, mate. The argument you are making is the same one used by murderous dictators and terrorist organisations (including Hamas) to justify their actions.

You are essentially matter-of-factly saying that ‘might is right’ and ‘to the victors belong the spoils’ regardless of what the ‘mighty victors’ did to “win”. You can say it is the reality as much as you like, but we aren’t really debating what has been in this thread (or in the wider world)—most rational, knowledgable observers know what has come before in history. What were are trying to parse out is what should be, and how that new reality could be brought about. That is the way you change things (hopefully for the better).

There is no need at all for a thread or any debate outside of it, if we are all just meant to accept what has come before will always be, specifically that “the winners wrote the rules and the losers have to live with them”. That is brutal, cold, totalitarian thinking, which is absolutely what the likes of Hitler, Putin, Ben Gvir, Sinwar, and countless other murderous entities have operated under for thousands of years.

Them having done so isn’t actually an answer to “why”. It’s just a statement of history. “Why” requires one to justify that mindset and the acts that follow. And no human-centred thinker could do that, for good reason. At which point, an alternative path needs to be developed to divert events and conditions toward humanist principles.

Ultimately, if you don’t want to be compared to murderous dictators and horrific terrorist groups, don’t make the same arguments to justify their actions as they have, whilst ignoring the realities of those actions and how they contravene humanist principles.

The debate YOU are having might be what should be, but that wasn’t the “debate” WE were having before you decided to intervene.

And, for the record here in Snowflake Central, I wasn’t even condoning past borders being drawn as part of a surrender or domination pact. I was merely illustrating that it is USUALLY how borders are drawn. There was ZERO JUSTIFICATION OF METHODS of achieving those results, only an acknowledgement of the facts.

If Bluemoon is outstanding at one thing, it’s taking the wrong end of the stick and not running with it until they’re tripped by their own.

However, I appreciate you stopping by to add your voice to the “murderous dictator” comparison. Nice.

 

[SebastianBlue]

The debate YOU are having might be what should be, but that wasn’t the “debate” WE were having before you decided to intervene.

And, for the record here in Snowflake Central, I wasn’t even condoning past borders being drawn as part of a surrender or domination pact. I was merely illustrating that it is USUALLY how borders are drawn. There was ZERO JUSTIFICATION OF METHODS of achieving those results, only an acknowledgement of the facts.

If Bluemoon is outstanding at one thing, it’s taking the wrong end of the stick and not running with it until they’re tripped by their own.

However, I appreciate you stopping by to add your voice to the “murderous dictator” comparison. Nice.

I don’t think you were having the same debate as the person you were responding to.

They asked a question and you responded with an answer to a question, but not their question.

And your answer was one that is used by murderous dictators. So, again, if you don’t want the comparisons, don’t say or do things that make the comparisons easy to make.

There’s really no way to take your original response in the wrong of context.

 

[Vic]

Because the winners write the new rules and the losers have to live with them…until another war changes that. So far, it hasn’t.

So the Palestinians were right to wage war against the establishment of a Jewish state? Or now, if Hamas win, and we get a free Palestine from the river to the sea, that's fine till the next war?

 

[ChicagoBlue]

So the Palestinians were right to wage war against the establishment of a Jewish state? Or now, if Hamas win, and we get a free Palestine from the river to the sea, that's fine till the next war?

Who said ANY of this was “fine” or that the concept of the winners of a war keeping their “spoils” was great and righteous?

Way too many of you are so up your own arses with hypotheticals you think prove you’re in the right, you project feelings and sensibilities on words that are such an outrageous reach as to be ridiculous…as in worthy of ridicule.

The sooner the war is over and the squabbles can be about who owns which patch of sand again, the better, because you’ve all become SO fucking boring.

Enjoy the circle jerk of oh-so-righteous indignation from your keyboards.

 

[BayernMan]

 

[SebastianBlue]

Who said ANY of this was “fine” or that the concept of the winners of a war keeping their “spoils” was great and righteous?

Way too many of you are so up your own arses with hypotheticals you think prove you’re in the right, you project feelings and sensibilities on words that are such an outrageous reach as to be ridiculous…as in worthy of ridicule.

The sooner the war is over and the squabbles can be about who owns which patch of sand again, the better, because you’ve all become SO fucking boring.

Enjoy the circle jerk of oh-so-righteous indignation from your keyboards.

It is ok to admit your original statement was not written correctly to reflect what you were trying to convey. We’ve all done it, many times.

But the doubling down with non-sequitur, strawman arguments, and personal insults to back an obviously problematic post is stripping away at your credibility.

There is nothing hypothetical about your comment.

The logical continuation of your comment is that if Hamas win this conflict Jewish people just have to accept the outcome.

You don’t think that is problematic?

Or perhaps your original comment was just written poorly and you meant something else entirely?

 

[ChicagoBlue]

It is ok to admit your original statement was not written correctly to reflect what you were trying to convey. We’ve all done it, many times.

I didn’t do that, but you’re not the first person to misread and misunderstand others. It’s not just your fault.

But the doubling down with non-sequitur, strawman arguments, and personal insults to back an obviously problematic post is stripping away at your credibility.

There is nothing hypothetical about your comment.

Indeed, there is nothing hypothetical, but everything historical. European bigotry towards Jews meant the winners of the war had to find a place for those against whom crimes against humanity had been committed. Those winners carved up land to accommodate others.

This is not in the slightest hypothetical, so stop it already.

And, who are these “indigenous people” of whom you speak?! How long is your memory…and history?

The logical continuation of your comment is that if Hamas win this conflict Jewish people just have to accept the outcome.

That’s about as simple-minded of a ridiculous hypothetical as you could make. Bravo! Not what I said, but bravo nonetheless! What next, Fonzie? Jumping the shark?

You don’t think that is problematic?

Or perhaps your original comment was just written poorly and you meant something else entirely?

Nice try. More questions! Writes itself.

B.O.R.I.N.G.