Middle East Conflict

Churchlawtonblue said:
They didn't build those rockets in Gaza or make their weapons there. Its Iran that's funding this hate. Iran bankrolls terrorism and aggression across the free world. If the west wants to end this , we should stop pussy footing arround with sanctions and cut the head off the snake. Take out the Iranian dictatorship and military top order with air strikes.
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Like the premise but you make it sound easy which it's not...if you could persuade the Republican guard to join hands with the protesters the world would become an infinitely better place
 
jim tolmies perm said:
Like the premise but you make it sound easy which it's not...if you could persuade the Republican guard to join hands with the protesters the world would become an infinitely better place
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Well what we have been doing so far hasn't exactly worked has it.

Those in charge arnt as brave when it's their existence threatened.
 
goalmole said:
Why shouldn't they have their own state and who are you to deny them one on the flimsy excuse that they might not be friendly to you once they have one?
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They've been offered this a number of times and (to use Garry Cook's phrase) "bottled it".

They were offered a jointly-ruled state with the Jews in the 1920's but refused that (although it's not clear whether the Jews were particularly keen on it either).

There were various attempts in the 1930's to achieve a compromise but the Arab Revolt of 1936-1939 saw significant violence between both Jews and Arabs, repression by the British forces (which pre-war were led by people like Montgomery, Wavell and 'Bomber' Harris) and also internecine conflict between Arab groups. As a result, the British restricted immigration of Jews, at a time when they most needed to flee Europe.

Post-war the Anglo-American Commission of 1946 failed to find a solution so the British handed the Mandate back to the UN, who proposed the Partition Plan. Yet again, the Arabs rejected this, which would have given them far more than they'll ever get now.

en.wikipedia.org

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Following the UN vote to accept the plan, the Arab armies attacked the newly-declared Israeli state but lost the areas marked in pink/coral on the map in the above link. That led to the internationally accepted 1948 borders. It should be noted that had the Arabs succeeded in overrunning Israel, then there still wouldn't have been an independent Palestinian state. The Syrians saw it as part of a Greater Syria and the Egyptians as part of Egypt. That of course led to what the Palestinians call the Nakba, the creation of the refugee issue.

At that point, Jordan occupied the West Bank and could have set up an independent state, but annexed it in 1950 (with the support of the Palestinian leadership) and it became Jordanian territory although the annexation was regarded as illegal by the international community.

The Egyptians occupied Gaza but that was governed under military rule, rather than civilian. But neither allowed the occupants of those areas any form of self-governance so it's clear that, despite their rhetoric, there's never been any notion among Arab leaders of a Palestinian state.

Things changed again in 1967, when the Six Day War saw Israel now in control of the West Bank and 'Palestine' suddenly became a problem, as did Israeli settlements in the West Bank & (to a lesser extent) Gaza. The Oslo Accords in the 1990's offered them full or partial control over some of the West Bank (but ultimately got nowhere) and Yitzhak Rabin, the author of those, was assassinated by extreme right-wing elements in Israel because of it. Netanyahu was opposed to them and his current Internal Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir was one of those actively calling for Rabin's head. He's a far-right, convicted racist, which shows the moral vacuum at the heart of Israeli politics currently.

But the point is that they've had opportunities, primarily in 1947/1948, to have an independent state but have firmly rejected those.
 
The blue phantom said:
Most of those points seem to describe the state of Israel too.
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Probably why many people dislike the leadership of the state of Israel.

Side note but what the fuck is it with the whataboutist twunts on this thread?

Honestly, go get yourself on Reddit and see some of Hamas’s videos and see how much you want to “whatabout” after watching them. Especially the poor young woman being passed from one truck to another with blood pouring between her legs and all over her behind. If seeing that video and the many like it doesn’t put you off ‘both side-ing’ this thread for a few hours then I’d probably say you’re a sociopath.
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
They didn't build those rockets in Gaza or make their weapons there. Its Iran that's funding this hate. Iran bankrolls terrorism and aggression across the free world. If the west wants to end this , we should stop pussy footing arround with sanctions and cut the head off the snake. Take out the Iranian dictatorship and military top order with air strikes.
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I wouldn't disagree with your diagnosis.

But I doubt that taking out the Iranian dictatorship could be achieved without a lot of civilian casualties and mayhem. From what I can tell, a majority of ordinary Iranians would like to be rid of their own leadership. Whether they would support your strategy is another matter.

Reading the 2008 edition of the late Michael Axworthy's Empire of the Mind: A History of Iran, one detail (actually from the blurb on the back) jumped out at me: in this 'Islamic Republic', only 1.4% of Iranians attend Friday prayers at the mosque. That's probably below Sunday church attendance figures in the UK. So what does that suggest about the state of the revolution even back then?

An here's a little extract from the book itself:

'....there is good evidence that Iranians are today more sceptical of religious leadership and more inclined to secularism than most other nationalities in the Middle East. The failure of the West to take advantage of the opportunity offered by a reformist president in Iran already looks like a bad mistake. One such opportunity came after the September 11, 2001 attacks in the United States when members of the Iranian leadership (not just Khatami, but also Khamanei), condemned the terrorist action in forthright terms, and ordinary Iranians showed their sympathies with candlelit vigils in the streets of Tehran - more evidence of the marked difference of attitude between Iranians and other Middle Eastern peoples.'

In recent years I haven't kept up with events in Iran, so I am not best placed to make any kind of judgement call about the state of the country. The expat Iranians I taught (mainly the sons and daughters of those who fled Iran after the fall of the Shah) and their parents, some of whom I got to know quite well, were highly intellectual, very pleasant people, but also quite patriotic. I got the sense - though I could be wrong - that they resented the foreign interference that has dogged Iranian history.

Perhaps the most egregious recent example was Operation Ajax, the US/UK instigated coup d'état that got rid of Mossadeq. Who knows what might have happened if we hadn't interfered? Instead, we got the return of the Shah, and then the Iranian revolution as a reaction to his rule.

With the passing of Axworthy, the UK's leading commentator on Iran is probably Ali Ansari at St Andrews. So it might be worth watching out for any articles by him in the days ahead.

But like I said, bearing in mind what happened in Iraq back in 2003 and past Iranian history, I would be wary.
 

Nothing will work until the illegal occupation by Israel is dealt with. It's as simple as that.
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Do you propose to move Israel somewhere else then?
 
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