Middle East Conflict

[cucumberman]

I think it is that simple but it will take a sea-change in attitudes to do it. Gaza is probably a simpler issue than the West Bank but I just can't see Hamas backing down in the medium term.

I'm Jewish. I know full well what some of these religious fundamentalists are like. I've criticised Netanyahu and his increasingly strident right-wing clique on here frequently. One of the problems in Israel is that the PR electoral system gives disproportionate power to the smaller parties in a coalition and many of those smaller parties represent ultra-religious Jews who see Israel as a biblical entity rather than a political one, and the largely ultra-Zionist settler movement. There's some overlap between the two but by and large they're separate groups.

The 4 parties representing the two groups got about 22.5% of the vote in the 2015 election and got 27 seats. Likud got a little bit more and got 30 seats. There are 120 in total so 61 is needed for a majority. One of the right-wing, non-religious parties with 6 seats refused to join the coalition but a more centrist party, Kulanu, with 10, did join thereby giving it 61 seats. So basically Netanyahu is in hock to the religious right. But they're really only interested in the West Bank. Gaza holds no interest for them from an expansionist point of view and they'd be happy to let the Palestinians have it. But at the moment it suits Hamas to be confrontational and negative, a bit like the Unionist parties were in Northern Ireland for a long time.

I've always thought it suspicious in the past that, when there appears to be a chance for some sort of peace, there's a provocation and/or flare-up of violence. I'd say both sides are frightened of taking the steps needed to a peaceful settlement of sorts.

A sensible and clarifying post. This is around same opinion shared by my Israeli friends. They are in Israel and they hope for a two state solution. For the atheists they have no problem with a one state solution as long as its a democracy thats transparent.

They however are fed up with the situation and would prefer to leave for somewhere else because there are better opportunities and some in their circles are disillusioned about Palestinians intent to varying degrees.

Are you in Israel? And if so would you prefer staying there? If not would you consider migrating to Israel?

I work with refugees, mostly Syrian but some Palestinians. I can assure you that a majority if not all dont give the charter any weight at all. These are people whose family has been living with Christians and jews indigenous to the area. Remember, Christians in the charter are non-believers too, yet they hold a dozen or so exclusive seats in the election. All the Palestinians I know have nothing against Israelis.

 

[west didsblue]

Cant you see that your last sentence is a blanketed attempt to drag people into such discussions in the first place?

I think you are being paranoid. No one in this thread has so far attempted to delegetimise Israel’s existence. More of holding its PM and whoever around his circle accountable and delegtimise their methods. Everyone in the thread was commenting on the atrocities of children being shot at, yet the thread has gone pedantic with discussion along the lines of ‘yes its wrong to shoot at children, but....’. Cant fault them for responding to this as people are so incensed that some would deprioritise the issue of sniping children to talk about issues that no one other than executive members of both parties thousand miles from us are privy to.

Cannot people just go ‘yes its wrong to shoot at children, what were they thinking?’.

Now, on to the discussion at hand. Treatment of children.

Since 2000, at least 8000 children have been detained a majority of which spirited away without their parents being informed. The amendment stipulates that parents must be immediately informed upon detaining but with the loopholes in the amendment these are largely not practised. It can be argued that kidnapping and detaining without informing the parents is not the same, but these are all just semantics. As a parent I consider both the same and the trauma to be the same.

Also, the amendment states that the children are right to an attorney, however the catch is the child must himself state which particular attorney to contact. Thus, making this clause useless.

www.dci-palestine.org/children_in_israeli_detention


An 8 month old baby died 3 days ago as one of the Palestinians who died. If you had the chance to meet the mother while she held the baby in her arms, would you express your sympathy but also backhanded it with a “but....you know...cant fault them...you got your comeuppance” ?

He’s posted twice (Homer) and in both instances I cant see where youve drawn to the conclusion that he believe Israel has no right to exist. im certain others neutral to this issue would find his posts to not even near implying that as well.

Try reading his posts where he suggests that those trying to breach the Gaza border are only trying to walk on to occupied Palestinian land. If he believes that the land surrounding Gaza is occupied Palestinian land then he believes that the whole of Israel is occupied Palestinian land as the rest of Israel is legally no different to land near Gaza border. I've asked him to clarify but he's ignored the question so the only conclusion I can come to is that he doesn't believe Israel has a right to be there.
As for targeting children - It's wrong full stop. You won't find me trying to justify that. Whether it's accidental, government policy or criminal behaviour by certain troops is the question.

 

[Scottyboi]

Try reading his posts where he suggests that those trying to breach the Gaza border are only trying to walk on to occupied Palestinian land. If he believes that the land surrounding Gaza is occupied Palestinian land then he believes that the whole of Israel is occupied Palestinian land as the rest of Israel is legally no different to land near Gaza border. I've asked him to clarify but he's ignored the question so the only conclusion I can come to is that he doesn't believe Israel has a right to be there.
As for targeting children - It's wrong full stop. You won't find me trying to justify that. Whether it's accidental, government policy or criminal behaviour by certain troops is the question.

Looking at all the videos I've seen over the years the young Israeli soldiers look brainwashed into thinking of the Palestinians as vermin no way you are just like that as a person it is taught. Black Mirror did a good episode on the idea. I bet when they grow old and wiser they will look back in horror.

 

[cucumberman]

Looking at all the videos I've seen over the years the young Israeli soldiers look brainwashed into thinking of the Palestinians as vermin no way you are just like that as a person it is taught. Black Mirror did a good episode on the idea. I bet when they grow old and wiser they will look back in horror.

That's my thinking as well. If anyone has psychopathic behaviour and are curious to know how it feels to kill a person, as most psychopaths start with, this is one outlet to realise one's curiosity. Shooting humans like they are cardboard targets. We all know how impressionable young people are sometimes making bad decisions.

I always contribute to the fault of the deaths of these Palestinians to those whose fingers are on the trigger. Even if they were given the director to shoot to kill, if it were me I would exhaust all other diplomatic and then non lethal actions first. And even when it comes to shooting someone in the head, regardless if they have a Molotov or stones, I'd rather shoot the ground in front of them.

The blame that I place on their leadership is that these atrocities have never been punished justly. Non Muslim activists have been killed by them, incapacitated Palestines have been killed by them, mothers and children have been killed by them. Just 2 days ago An 8 month old baby has been killed by them. And then There are more than a dozen videos capturing how in situations of absolutely zero threat, absolutely no threat whatsoever, they prop themselves, eye on the optic, and shoot someone tens to hundreds metres away.

Their media goes in overdrive describing violent protests and violent behaviour, as if this is wide scale behaviour, yet many neutral observers, journalists, paramedic and foreign activists recall that protest was for the most part peaceful with pockets or tyre burning and stone throwing.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

A sensible and clarifying post. This is around same opinion shared by my Israeli friends. They are in Israel and they hope for a two state solution. For the atheists they have no problem with a one state solution as long as its a democracy thats transparent.

They however are fed up with the situation and would prefer to leave for somewhere else because there are better opportunities and some in their circles are disillusioned about Palestinians intent to varying degrees.

Are you in Israel? And if so would you prefer staying there? If not would you consider migrating to Israel?

I work with refugees, mostly Syrian but some Palestinians. I can assure you that a majority if not all dont give the charter any weight at all. These are people whose family has been living with Christians and jews indigenous to the area. Remember, Christians in the charter are non-believers too, yet they hold a dozen or so exclusive seats in the election. All the Palestinians I know have nothing against Israelis.

I've visited Israel but have no burning desire to live there. However that would depend on the environment here. It's much worse in France at the moment.

I suspect the majority on both sides would be quite happy to live alongside each other peacefully but, as I've said before, there's a leadership clique on both sides that seems to have no interest in doing this.

Edit: You've just reminded me that the cynic in me wonders why Israel is seemingly so keen to appear so brutal. Whether it's right or not (and it isn't) the negative actions of Israel tend to increase antisemitism abroad. By doing so, it encourages Jews to emigrate from those countries to Israel, where they feel safer. So I often wonder if scenes like the ones from Gaza aren't deliberately engineered in order to increase immigration into Israel. And of course, they need someone like Hamas to help them do that. I even sometimes wonder if they don't quietly arrange things between them, like a WWE wrestling match. "If you do this, then we'll do that and we can both appear really tough."

 

[franksinatra]

Just adding my two-penneth here and I am happy to admit I am not as well versed as many on this subject.

You do wonder if much the violence and hatred is engineered by both the Israeli govornment and and Hamas to suit their own political ends.

The Israeli govornment seems to use a hammer to crack a nut on every conceivable occasion, which only fuels the fire and probably by creating or at least exacerbating security issues its more likely they will receive the vote once again as thats a natural reaction of an electorate which feels under threat to choose a party considered tough on security. Hamas by attacking Israel do they deflect from the reality of the poverty many Palestinians within Gaza live in and how there lot does not seem to improve year after year.

Its really difficult to reconcile the picture you see on television with my own experiences within Israel. So much so I had to check that Arabs were able to live in Israel itself rather than behind concrete walls and fences often viewed on TV.

I saw friendships between communities, working parnerships and towns living adjacent to each other live in relative peace. On a weekend I would visit Kfar Yasif an Israeli Arab town and receive no hostility and monday to Friday work with members of both communities.

That gives me a belief both communities, or the majority, of people wish for peace but sadly the policies politically, such as settlements etc, only seem to entrench the differences and it does make you wonder if this is a political aim.

 

[East Level 2]

Pep lived forever and will live forever he's god

Pep cannot be god as there is clear proof he exists.
On the other hand; he has performed miracles and certainly moves in mysterious ways if his goal celebrations on Sunday are anything to go by.

 

[MaineDAWG2008]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...e-hamas/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.fe4e7ccc4635

Interesting read. Hamas group's existence was setup by Israeli govt to destroy Arafat.

 

[inbetween]

That's my thinking as well. If anyone has psychopathic behaviour and are curious to know how it feels to kill a person, as most psychopaths start with, this is one outlet to realise one's curiosity. Shooting humans like they are cardboard targets. We all know how impressionable young people are sometimes making bad decisions.

I always contribute to the fault of the deaths of these Palestinians to those whose fingers are on the trigger. Even if they were given the director to shoot to kill, if it were me I would exhaust all other diplomatic and then non lethal actions first. And even when it comes to shooting someone in the head, regardless if they have a Molotov or stones, I'd rather shoot the ground in front of them.

The blame that I place on their leadership is that these atrocities have never been punished justly. Non Muslim activists have been killed by them, incapacitated Palestines have been killed by them, mothers and children have been killed by them. Just 2 days ago An 8 month old baby has been killed by them. And then There are more than a dozen videos capturing how in situations of absolutely zero threat, absolutely no threat whatsoever, they prop themselves, eye on the optic, and shoot someone tens to hundreds metres away.

Their media goes in overdrive describing violent protests and violent behaviour, as if this is wide scale behaviour, yet many neutral observers, journalists, paramedic and foreign activists recall that protest was for the most part peaceful with pockets or tyre burning and stone throwing.

Ask yourself this, as you have said an 8 month old baby was killed at this demonstration. What do you think an 8 month old baby is doing at a violent demonstration where only a fence stands between you and a heavily armed army?

There was no diplomatic resolution or whatever to this. The Army has orders to defend the threat to the border and not to go walking in trying to make friends with people who have been ordered to kill Israeli's.

There is no such thing as a 'for the most part' peaceful protest. If a load of people started protesting in London and a handful were throwing molotovs, burning shops, jumping over the fence into Buckingham Palace and there were 50+ terrorists amongst their ranks... What do you seriously think the police would do to that protest?????

 

[The blue phantom]

Ask yourself this, as you have said an 8 month old baby was killed at this demonstration. What do you think an 8 month old baby is doing at a violent demonstration where only a fence stands between you and a heavily armed army?

There was no diplomatic resolution or whatever to this. The Army has orders to defend the threat to the border and not to go walking in trying to make friends with people who have been ordered to kill Israeli's.

There is no such thing as a 'for the most part' peaceful protest. If a load of people started protesting in London and a handful were throwing molotovs, burning shops, jumping over the fence into Buckingham Palace and there were 50+ terrorists amongst their ranks... What do you seriously think the police would do to that protest?????

They wouldn't have snipers taking the side of a child's head off, I'm fairly confident of that.