Middle East Conflict

[mancity2012_eamo]

You make some good points but may I also point out that whilst Britain was shitty towards Irish Catholics, for a much longer period of time before that, British/English Catholics didn’t fare any better at home for a couple of centuries (excluding a period of a few years) from 1534.

Tens of thousands killed, not because people worshipped a different god, but simply because they worshipped the same god in a very slightly different way.

Madness.

In ireland, we are or were taught a very specific history in school that I have looked at myself in maturity.

We were taught a very insular version specific to us which obviously involves British oppression, a lot.

But I’ve come to see, not that it didn’t happen, but that we were part of a bigger picture that was going on in Europe, particularly when it came to religious wars since the reformation.
Much of those wars were fought or played out here.

The thing is you had a population of close on 90% Catholic, who basically had no rights at all under British rule. The time of the Plantations all the way to the famine, there was an ethnic cleansing policy and if you look at Punch Magazine cartoons of the Irish people, you see the same dehumanisation. Depicting the peasants as Chimpanzees.

The 1798 rebellion wasn’t just Catholics. It involved Irish Protestants and Ulster Presbyterians who were not treated very well also.
It was inspired by the French Revolution.

The Act of Union in 1801 was rushed in to combat any further thoughts along the lines of a Republic

Anyway. It’s history. As you say, there was oppression enough to go around in England and elsewhere.

The Union was never going to last in Ireland not with circa 90% of a country against it, whether they had a say or not.

The solution of Northern Ireland was always going to be troublesome and here’s where I see more similarities with the solution in Israel.

You need a just governance.
You need equality for all citizens.
You need an integrated impartial police force.

NI is not Israel and Israel is not NI and I hate to keep going on about it, but ex colonial solutions have a habit of coming back and biting the supposed benefactors ( edit: and beneficiaries) on the arse.

We never learn.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I dragged the stats off their website, they are supposed to be stopping this all they have done is nothing. You'd have though going by what you posted that they shipped loads of people in.

Opening the doors to buildings the Israelis are bombing isn't protecting them, and a lot of the UN there are actually Palestinian where were they going to go anyway?

The USA with their veto makes the UN useless specially in this case.

You should read Noam Chomsky’ view on American Israel/Palestine policy and their use of the veto.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

My answer is in reference to someone suggesting that they were doing anything, if the UN got rid of the veto system they could do a lot more to save civilians.

The rogues gallery.

• China.
• France.
• Russian Federation.
• United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
• United States of America.

Unfortunately you are not wrong.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Israel has an absolute right (and duty) to defend itself, but choose your battles ffs.

Did they as always choose expansion over security?

Time will tell.

 

[St.Pauli support]

Someone should just ask them how many civilian casualties are acceptable in the pursuit of revenge.

You know exactly it's not revenge, it's a bit more difficult. There's a terror organization about to found a radical Islamist state without Israel or a single Jew anyway near them.

Do you want Hamas to stay in control of Gaza?
If not, how do you want to end their terror regime? How, without any civilians harmed, with Hamas shielding themselves by civilians? How?
Isn't that the fucking problem? Our fucking problem?

We want a Palestine state. But we don't want Hamas or an Iran-like Islamist state near Israel. How do we get Hamas off the table?

5,000? 10,000? 20,000? 50,000? There must be a number of civilian deaths where even politicians in the west decide that "we fully support any and all action Israel takes" stops working.

I don't believe for a second you missed Biden's message, Scholz', Baerbock's or Gutuerres'. We can add dozens.
Pressure is already there and you know it.
As if your weird numbers would be backed. EU already are completely divided on that matter. As are UK.

So, what would you do in this crisis if you were PM of Israel, and a moderate one?

 

[BlueAnorak]

Agreed.

I would love to think that Israel was precision bombing the shit out of just Hamas members, but the evidence of my eyes and the fact that over 500 children have been killed indicates that is simply not the case.

I guess my frustration is that the leader of my country (along with all other Western leaders) is offering full and unquestioning support for Israel's actions while quite rightly condemning Russia's bombing of Ukraine. So now it looks like their response is based on who is doing it and what is politically convenient rather than out of any principles.

Undoubtedly, children (and civilians) in Gaza have died, but serriously do you believe Hanas's casualty figures because I'm fairly sure they're inflated by at least 150%.
Similarly there are documented case of Hamas fighters preventing civilians from leaving an area in light of Israeli instructions to vacate an area.
Most important if all, if Hamas hadn't attacked Israel, the Israeli attacks in reply would not have happened and Isael has the right to stop Hamas attacking Israel.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

You know exactly it's not revenge, it's a bit more difficult. There's a terror organization about to found a radical Islamist state without Israel or a single Jew anyway near them.

Do you want Hamas to stay in control of Gaza?
If not, how do you want to end their terror regime? How, without any civilians harmed, with Hamas shielding themselves by civilians? How?
Isn't that the fucking problem? Our fucking problem?

We want a Palestine state. But we don't want Hamas or an Iran-like Islamist state near Israel. How do we get Hamas off the table?



I don't believe for a second you missed Biden's message, Scholz', Baerbock's or Gutuerres'. We can add dozens.
Pressure is already there and you know it.
As if your weird numbers would be backed. EU already are completely divided on that matter. As are UK.

So, what would you do in this crisis if you were PM of Israel, and a moderate one?

Why do they have a say in the government of their neighbours?

I think indiscriminate killing of children and civilians hardly helps make Palestinians more moderate and less attracted to Islamist neighbours.

There's a Jewish terrorist organisation in charge of Israel that hasn't had much respect for international borders and boundaries and carried out murders and aided and abetted massacres outside its own territory.

 

[The blue phantom]

Undoubtedly Children have dued, but serriously do you believe Hanas casualty figures because I'm fairly sure they're inflated by at least 150%. Similarly there are documented case of Hamas fighters preventing civilians from leaving an area in light of Israeli instructions to vacate an area.

I'm pretty sure Hamas's casualty figures could be on the low end judging by the catastrophic pictures and videos of what's left of Gaza. The new Aleppo.

 

[BlueAnorak]

Israel has an absolute right (and duty) to defend itself, but choose your battles ffs.

Indeed but what alternatives are there?

 

[BayernMan]

Indeed but what alternatives are there?

If your only other alternative is killing children, then you’re probably not looking hard if at all.