Middle East Conflict

[BlueAnorak]

I know why the American government back them now go back and read who I’m talking about.

Actually don’t I’ll save you time.
Myself and Rascal, I believe are talking about the , Zionist Christian Evangelist lobby in America.

I know what your talking about - but it is small beer compared to:
- The Jewish population of America 7.5m and the influence they hold in US politics.
- The aftermath of WW2 and the holocaust.
- The support Israel gives the US (intellegence being just one part).

 

[grunge]

Now that’s been settled, could you point to a successful annexing? Yugoslavia, kind of?

Just out of curiosity for the question because its quite an interesting discussion point. I guess it depends on the definition of success and time scales of whats being discussed. if one country invades another and it there for hundreds of years then leave. is that a success or a fail?

The Roman Empire "annexed" 40/50 countries and lasted for about 1000 years. was that a success or a fail based on the fact the Roman empire fell? the Countries they Annexed dont exist as they did before.

The US has in effect annexed the entire US from native Americans. is that a successful annexation?

 

[inbetween]

Nowhere did I deny that Jewish people have the right to self-determination, in fact I referred to creating the state of Israel as a noble cause.

Acknowledging that the way the state was created was violent, hostile and set the stage for 100 years of violence is not the same thing as denying the right to self-determination.

So please remove your lame and lazy accusation of antisemitism.

Mate you have said that you don't deny the right for Israel to exist but you have implied that Israel shouldn't exist in its current form because the British etc messed up. However regardless the fact is Israel does exist in its current form and that was the self-determined land for Jewish people and the Israeli state is the result.

I'm not saying you're being anti-semitic but who are we to say what the Jewish self-determination is? The fact is that Israel exists in its current form as a self-determined Jewish state, denying that is denying that right to self-determination which would be anti-semitic.

Someone on another thread said that Jewish people should live in the US because there are more Jewish people there (and so Israel does not need to exist). That's denying self-determination too.

 

[domalino]

Just out of curiosity for the question because its quite an interesting discussion point. I guess it depends on the definition of success and time scales of whats being discussed. if one country invades another and it there for hundreds of years then leave. is that a success or a fail?

The Roman Empire "annexed" 40/50 countries and lasted for about 1000 years. was that a success or a fail based on the fact the Roman empire fell? the Countries they Annexed dont exist as they did before.

The US has in effect annexed the entire US from native Americans. is that a successful annexation?

Annexation is pretty much a meaningless word until the 1920's because before then borders were constantly moving one war or another. The world is always at war, territory is constantly changing hands.

It's after WW1 people decided this was ridiculous warmongery and the worlds borders pretty much got set in stone.

In the way we view it today, annexation only really exists in the last century. Which is why I suggested Goa, as it happened in the 1960's, it's a proper annexation via military force, and it's successful because pretty much everyone who lived there considered themselves Indian and democratically voted to stay in India shortly after.

 

[domalino]

Mate you have said that you don't deny the right for Israel to exist but you have implied that Israel shouldn't exist in its current form because the British etc messed up. However regardless the fact is Israel does exist in its current form and that was the self-determined land for Jewish people and the Israeli state is the result.

I'm not saying you're being anti-semitic but who are we to say what the Jewish self-determination is? The fact is that Israel exists in its current form as a self-determined Jewish state, denying that is denying that right to self-determination which would be anti-semitic.

Someone on another thread said that Jewish people should live in the US because there are more Jewish people there (and so Israel does not need to exist). That's denying self-determination too.

No, yet again your reading comprehension lets you down.

I didn't imply Israel shouldn't exist, I acknowledged that its creation was an act of violence against the people who lived in the land when it was created, even though the cause it was done for was noble.

And by the way, the right to self-determination has never been the right to decide which land is yours. The idea that a group of people can say they have the right to land X is entirely unique to Zionism (and I'm using that word to mean the literal 19th & 20th century movement) among all other 20th century claims to self-determination that came up after WW1 and WW2.

Now I would argue that Jewish people are unique in the respect that they were 100% a diaspora with no homeland thanks to centuries of persecution, and that a land had to be created, but again I can believe that while understanding that unilaterally deciding to take a huge swathe of land away from someone else to make it is a very hostile thing to do that was always going to result in permanent conflict.


Just to add another post-script, IMO one of the tragedies of this whole situation is that at the time the state of Israel was being drawn up, land purchases were rampant. Literally every few years countries were buying land of each other either for financial reasons or because the people in those territories wanted to be part of the country buying them.

If it were not for the overwhelming racism towards Arab people by the British and Americans of the time (Churchill literally called them a lower race) and the way that was reflected in their treatment and dealings with the people native to the land then it is genuinely not impossible that Israel could have been created consensually and there would have been no century of violence.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I know what your talking about - but it is small beer compared to:
- The Jewish population of America 7.5m and the influence they hold in US politics.
- The aftermath of WW2 and the holocaust.
- The support Israel gives the US (intellegence being just one part).

Agreed.
And I’m a self confessed amateur in Israeli/Palestinian history in here compared to those that have skin in the game.
But I am doing my own research and trying my best to stay objective.
As I said about the Noam Chomsky interview that I posted, I’m learning fast, but do realise that finding other corroborating opinion is a must also.
However he very convincingly covers the difference between American attitudes in government, the pentagon and the community at large not least the Jewish community in America, up to and since 1967.

I think as things stand, American interest in the region is very much driven by the Pentagon and the fact it is a strategic military base in the region where it not only has a foot on the ground but also armament storage for use anywhere in the region.
There would be no Israel without America and it’s not all altruistic, out of concern for the Jewish people.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Now that doesn’t mean Israel shouldn’t exist,

Well that's very decent of you. At least we're getting somewhere.

Go back as far or as recently as you want. No one else in history has ever had a claim to land that neither they nor any of their ancestors has lived on for 2,000 years.

There’s not really any serious argument that the land belonged to the Jewish people or that they had any legitimate claim to it.

Now that doesn’t mean Israel shouldn’t exist, but it is important to be honest about the way we, the British, went about creating it and how all of the subsequent violence has followed that first hostile and violent act of seizing territory.

We started the hostilities. We ignored the violence that followed up to 1948 even when it was so bad that the Americans pulled out of the partition plan because they could see it was never going to work in the way it was suggested.

So for @Prestwich_Blue to pretend that the Palestinians threw the first stone in 1948 so it’s all their fault and they should “get over it” is beyond dishonest.

And it is not just history, it is relevant now because how can we possibly go about healing wounds and division unless we can actually acknowledge that something bad, and violent was done to these people by world powers, even if it was done in pursuit of the noble cause of setting up a Jewish state.


The root of this problem is not religious. There’s almost no recorded history of violence between Islam and Judaism before the late 19th century. People reading, studying and preaching the Quran and Hadiths didn’t find any reason to declare war on Judaism until the modern conflict existed. The Ottoman Empire - an Islamic Caliphate - was the most hospitable place in Europe and Asia for Jewish people who weren’t persecuted like they were in Christian Europe.

It’s a land dispute, and you can fix land disputes, but only when both sides can agree that land was taken, even if giving it back isn’t on the table in negotiations.

I'm not sure I'm the one being dishonest here.

US involvement was mainly via the Anglo American Commission, which recommended a jointly-administered state and allowing 100,000 displaced Jews into Palestine immediately. But both sides disagreed on the recommendations and they weren't implemented. One further attempt was made, involving Peter Mandelson's grandfather, Herbert Morrison, which proposed something similar but which was rejected by both the Jews and the Arabs. Faced with an intractable situation, the British shrugged their shoulders and handed the mandate to the UN to resolve, who then voted for partition, which the USA was in favour of. So that's one thing you've been dishonest about.

And it wasn't the British therefore who created the problem, but the UN. So that's another.

And the violence that led to the current state of affairs started in May 1948, when Israel declared statehood. We can go back to the Arab riots of 1920 or the Arab revolt of 1936, or any Jewish actions but there's absolutely no deniable doubt that a number of Arab regular armies attacked the new state in order to wipe it out. Any other view is totally dishonest.

To emphasise the above point, let's hypothesise that both sides accepted the partition, shook hands and any Arabs in the Israeli side became Israeli citizens and any Jews on the Palestinian side became Palestinian citizens. The two states lived happily, side-by-side with no internecine violence. Ask yourself why that didn't happen.

 

[Ducado]

I know what your talking about - but it is small beer compared to:
- The Jewish population of America 7.5m and the influence they hold in US politics.
- The aftermath of WW2 and the holocaust.
- The support Israel gives the US (intellegence being just one part).

Which is bollocks, the Jewish population in America are far more progressive and tend to vote democrat (there are exceptions) their influence is over exaggerated and becomes a conspiracy theory

What influences America politics especially in issues related to Israel is the Fundamentalist Christian movement and far right politics in general

As for the support Israel gives America, does that include the several spying scandals? The American military don’t trust the Israelis one bit, mainly because they are always trying to manoeuvre them into blind ally’s

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Which is bollocks, the Jewish population in America are far more progressive and tend to vote democrat (there are exceptions) their influence is over exaggerated and becomes a conspiracy theory

What influences America politics especially in issues related to Israel is the Fundamentalist Christian movement and far right politics in general

As for the support Israel gives America, does that include the several spying scandals? The American military don’t trust the Israelis one bit, mainly because they are always trying to manoeuvre them into blind ally’s

If you see my response to him, this is the distinction I am referring to about pre and post 1967.
If Chomsky is to be believed, many American Jews, particularly the younger generation, are quite supportive of Palestine.
Maybe some of our American contributors could inform us on that.

American military don’t want to be drawn into a battle Israel causes but they back Israel as a strategic foothold in the area.

 

[Blue Maverick]

Fuck me the Israeli guy at the UN has just shown live the beheading of someone!