Middle East Conflict

[The Future’s Blue!]

Like that's going to happen!

Although Iran does have the upper hand, the missile attack might not have done a lot of damage (although we will never know) but it proved that they can do it and have enough fire power to get through any defence

Lots of talking heads on the news from various US Right Wing think tanks telling the Israelis to go after Iran's nuclear facilities, which would just guarantee a massive strike against Israel's nuclear facility at Dimona

So lets go for their main oil export terminal in the gulf, besides the fact that a lot of their oil goes to China this would just invite the Iranians to destroy Israel's two oil refineries at Haifa and Ashdod, and you can't wage a war with no fuel!

So a few strikes at probably empty army bases and redundant silos is what they are left with, I mean all of this assumes they would not be as daft to do any of the above but I would not put my money on it

We seem to be on the brink and when people are forced into a corner, they will have no option but to fight back.

Would Iran throw a proper barrage into Israel, enough to overwhelm their defensive systems, I don’t know, but if the situation in Gaza and Lebanon continues, they may have no choice.

Calm heads are needed, I don’t think we have them.

 

[metalblue]

We seem to be on the brink and when people are forced into a corner, they will have no option but to fight back.

Would Iran throw a proper barrage into Israel, enough to overwhelm their defensive systems, I don’t know, but if the situation in Gaza and Lebanon continues, they may have no choice.

Calm heads are needed, I don’t think we have them.

Iran are a bit stuck IMHO. They want nukes - that’s the game changer for them. They need Russian know how to achieve this. Russia wants their ballistic missiles to hit Ukraine with. There is a limit to what they can use against Israel if they want to achieve their ambition. Calm heads? Maybe not but certainly conflicted. Live today to nuke Israel tomorrow sort of thing.

 

[Ducado]

We seem to be on the brink and when people are forced into a corner, they will have no option but to fight back.

Would Iran throw a proper barrage into Israel, enough to overwhelm their defensive systems, I don’t know, but if the situation in Gaza and Lebanon continues, they may have no choice.

Calm heads are needed, I don’t think we have them.

that's the dramatic reading of the situation however I believe all the options have been laid out by the Americans and I doubt very much they would want to get involved in attacking Iran they have not got a good record in nation building and also Iran is a huge country people tend to forget this

Strategically all Iran had to do was show the US and Israel what they are capable of, that's all they needed to do

By the way I have no love or regard for the regime in Iran, it's a curse on the region and holds back what could be a great and prosperous country, and the current regime is backwards and repressive, but it was created by American and British meddling and the think tanks are trying again, it's like they never learnt from Iraq, without the current Israeli government and the current Iranian government the whole region could be so much more

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Civilians in Gaza ?
Kids who learn from age 4
Hate, kill ,what education what generation what a chance to them for normal ?
Hamas caver is that civilian in conical way
The world believes that picture
- we have the right to defend our country, one bomb in London not 181 like yesterday
And the world will justify any attack on civilians wherever they are

You do have a right to defend yourself for sure, but killing over 45thousand people is a completely disproportionate response. 2million people in Gaza and only a small proportion are terrorists.
Can you not see you are doing Hamas's recruiting for them?

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

On this point only, and I'm sure you know, the reason for that is primarily based on their own hatred of Iran, and that is all down to the different sects of the muslim faith (sunny/shiite).




I'd disagree to a point, it is targetted or intel based, the problem in Gaza, is that hamas are completely embedded in (and often underneath) the innocent civilians.

Israel wants to wipe hamas out (understandably), so (it will say) it's unavoidable, and they have constantly warned the civilians to move when about to go into areas, the problem is theirs not really anywhere to go.

The big difference in Lebabon, is that hezbollah don't hide their infrastructure in/underneath the civilian population, so it's far easier to "target" it. Yes their leaders live/lived amongst the civilians (as in Gaza), and there will still be some collateral casualties, but far less than in (the much smaller) Gaza, and the civilians can get much further away from the targets.

Targeted but not targeted. You can't have it both ways. The numbers killed tell the truth. Hamas aren't destroyed yet still the IDF attack and the civilian dead increases way beyond the total number of Hamas terrorists.

The IDF are effectively recruiting the next generation of anti Israel terrorists with this indiscriminate campaign of bombing and killing.

It's madness.

 

[metalblue]

Interesting article on BBC today. I had the impression that the 7th October attack was simply going after the festival goers however it was also against military targets which makes the murdering of the festival goers even more pointless.

Questions for IDF over fall of border post Nahal Oz on 7 October

The BBC has seen an army account of how Hamas overran a base, and spoken to survivors and bereaved families.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[tel aviv city]

You do have a right to defend yourself for sure, but killing over 45thousand people is a completely disproportionate response. 2million people in Gaza and only a small proportion are terrorists.
Can you not see you are doing Hamas's recruiting for them?

Do you have any idea what it's like to live next to terror and crime among civilians? Netanyahu's Israel tried for 15 years
And it failed, the time to conduct ourselves as the gift of wits, that we agreed to live next to it, even finance it - no more
Israel woke up to a new day -
The terror will either destroy our country, God forbid, or it will fold and look for other enemies, and by the way, it is not particularly lacking

 

[inbetween]

Tbf, they’re surrounded by countries, people and ideologies that are trying to wipe them from the face of the earth by any means possible, yet they’re expected to accept and allow the full integration of said peoples into their country, lives and institutions…and sit down with them to talk about “peace,” while only serving as a proxy for a much larger, stronger, and militarily significant adversary that doesn’t like to get its hands dirty.

There’s not many places on earth where you can look at the horizon, in all directions, and say, “They want to annihilate us!”

If the US went into a bombing campaign that killed potentially 1000 innocent people in mere weeks then we'd be utterly shocked and disgusted. It'd certainly be declared illegal and excessive.

If there was one terrorist in Chicago then would you accept that the Royal Air Force from the UK could fly into the US and drop a 1000lb bomb right in the centre of the apartment block where the terrorist lived whilst also killing hundreds of innocents? This is the same analogy of what Israel is doing in Lebanon.

Well targeted and planned attacks from the air do not kill and wound thousands of people. What Israel is doing is extremely likely to be illegal unless of course they've killed thousands of terrorists and no civilians but given the pictures of them bombing central Beirut I find that to be extremely unlikely!

I understand everybody around them hates them and there are reasons for that but bombing civilian areas and causing such excessive loss of life and damage is never justified, at least by western standards anyway.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

that's the dramatic reading of the situation however I believe all the options have been laid out by the Americans and I doubt very much they would want to get involved in attacking Iran they have not got a good record in nation building and also Iran is a huge country people tend to forget this

Strategically all Iran had to do was show the US and Israel what they are capable of, that's all they needed to do

By the way I have no love or regard for the regime in Iran, it's a curse on the region and holds back what could be a great and prosperous country, and the current regime is backwards and repressive, but it was created by American and British meddling and the think tanks are trying again, it's like they never learnt from Iraq, without the current Israeli government and the current Iranian government the whole region could be so much more

I agree, both regimes are toxic within, entrenched in their own power struggles.

When one looks at these things, I always look at the most dangerous scenario and then move to the most likely. It’s interesting that Iran did similar to last time, flagged to everybody who needed to know, what they were going to do. They don’t want escalation but have to show to their people that they are capable of retaliation when needed.

However, this isn’t really about them, is all about how far Israel, or should I say the Israeli government, are willing to take it.

 

[Vic]

Do you have any idea what it's like to live next to terror and crime among civilians? Netanyahu's Israel tried for 15 years
And it failed, the time to conduct ourselves as the gift of wits, that we agreed to live next to it, even finance it - no more
Israel woke up to a new day -
The terror will either destroy our country, God forbid, or it will fold and look for other enemies, and by the way, it is not particularly lacking

What's it like having your land stolen by settlers? Netanyahu hasn't tried anything other than facilitate land grabs.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

So you're suggesting that Palestinians will have to keep fighting in order to get their land back.

FAFO.

Good luck!

 

[Vic]

Targeted but not targeted. You can't have it both ways. The numbers killed tell the truth. Hamas aren't destroyed yet still the IDF attack and the civilian dead increases way beyond the total number of Hamas terrorists.

The IDF are effectively recruiting the next generation of anti Israel terrorists with this indiscriminate campaign of bombing and killing.

It's madness.

... recruiting an anti-Israel generation worldwide. It's not terrorists providing the existential threat, it's the Israeli response to terrorism losing them sympathy.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

So at what point does Israel think they have enough land?

When they occupy all the West Bank?

When they occupy east of the Jordan?

When they reclaim the extent of Solomon's biblical kingdom? (Whether or not those biblical borders were true or just an optimistic "history".)

Discuss what land you want who to cede to whom.

I don’t know which land, or when, or even why. What I know is that they didn’t start this round of conflict, but they intend to end it on their terms, if and when they see fit.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

... recruiting an anti-Israel generation worldwide. It's not terrorists providing the existential threat, it's the Israeli response to terrorism losing them sympathy.

So, what should they do? Wine & roses, with a “Thank you, sir, may I have another?” card?

 

[Vic]

So, what should they do? Wine & roses, with a “Thank you, sir, may I have another?” card?

Not killing their own leaders who are willing to negotiate for peace would be a start.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

This isn’t war though mate. Israel is repeatedly hitting civilians, killing scores, but justifying it by saying they got some baddie.

I do appreciate the tactical complexities of the area they are trying to rid of Hamas - and it is complex - but their distain for human life is sickening. This is why the world is looking on in anger or looking away in shame. The leaders know they can’t influence it so just repeat platitudes like “right to defend itself”.

It’s guerrilla warfare, not of their choosing, against cowards who use human shields, because they don’t give a fuck about the(ir) general population.

 

[Palerider]

Let me ask you this, What do you want the Palestinians to do to stop the Occupation and theft of their land. Serious question, How.do they do it?

I think that is a really good question.
Realistically they have to accept that the only way Israel, a nuclear power, is going to vacate the area is when they are all dead. So, they have two options (probably more?).

1: Eliminate Israel
What's left of Gaza says hi.

2: Peaceful negotiation.
Gandhi & Martin Luther King won their 'wars' by winning public opinion. Not by trying to kill their 'opponents' but by winning the argument. If the Palestinians found a leader who was an advocate for peaceful protest and who could articulate and debate on a world stage exactly what they wanted (and what they wanted was reasonable i.e not the removal of Israel) then world opinion would move in their direction and they would achieve a realistic resolution. Key word there being realistic.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Is war working? Is Israel living in peace and security? does indiscriminate killing of Arabs even the slate for you, would it be ok for Afghanistan to bomb Chicago for the the slaughter of Afghans by American forces and lets not forgot the Iraqis as or a bit further back the Vietnamese, that's where your argument is leading to, an eye for an eye as long as it's not your eyes that are being taken out

The last thing anyone needs is cheer leaders who's experience of war is from the cinema

Do you think that any side is going to be victorious? Last I seen Hamas was still entrenched in the rubble of Gaza, Hezbollah has repelled the ground invasions and as an insurgent army they are probably one of the best in the world, so we are looking at years and years of war, war that would destroy Israel's economy for what?

All that needs to happen is a meaningful ceasefire and proper talks on establishing a state for the Palestinians, I can guarantee that everyone would stop fighting, and stop the brutal oppression on the West bank it's making things a hell of lot worse for everyone including the Americans

The damage this is doing to the pychie of Israel is huge, it is becoming a pariah state in the world, and that matters a immensely to them, there has always been a longing to be accepted kind of like a bridge between the Middle East and Europe, they feel isolated now, no longer welcome in most of the world include in sports and cultural events, it can't go on like this and it's sad that there are people cheering them on

Sounds great, do what?

A people has to defend itself, no matter the reaction of snowflakes the world over.

And, they get to do it on their terms and rest of the world can judge from their comfy armchairs, I guess.

If Bluemoon had the ( that’d be great. In the absence of such, I prefer to leave it to the Israelis self-determination.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Sounds great, do what?

A people has to defend itself, no matter the reaction of snowflakes the world over.

And, they get to do it on their terms and rest of the world can judge from their comfy armchairs, I guess.

If Bluemoon had the ( that’d be great. In the absence of such, I prefer to leave it to the Israelis self-determination.

What about the Palestinians' self-determination?

 

[The blue phantom]

I think that is a really good question.
Realistically they have to accept that the only way Israel, a nuclear power, is going to vacate the area is when they are all dead. So, they have two options (probably more?).

1: Eliminate Israel
What's left of Gaza says hi.

2: Peaceful negotiation.
Gandhi & Martin Luther King won their 'wars' by winning public opinion. Not by trying to kill their 'opponents' but by winning the argument. If the Palestinians found a leader who was an advocate for peaceful protest and who could articulate and debate on a world stage exactly what they wanted (and what they wanted was reasonable i.e not the removal of Israel) then world opinion would move in their direction and they would achieve a realistic resolution. Key word there being realistic.

Israel are never going to give any of the stolen land back, Therefore the cycle of violence will continue. The Palistinians are the victims here.