Middle East Conflict

inbetween said:
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After what happened on the 7th October would you not say that negotiating with Hamas is almost an insult to Israeli's? That's what the US did straight after 9/11, they sat down with Bin Laden and negotiated with Al'Qaeda..... Or maybe not.
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Well, no - they attacked Iraq and ignored the Saudi involvement.
 
Chippy_boy said:
The reality though mate is that Hamas can never "be removed". There will always be a Hamas or a Real Hamas or a Provisional Hamas or whatever, so long as a significant proportion of Palestinians are not happy with their lot. Which means forever, if Israel carry on as they are.

Maybe they just have to accept being permanently at war, forever.
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I think Israel accepted that a long time ago. And it suits them. They'd got the animals under their thumbs, either walled up in Gaza or subject to 24 hour surveillance and harassment in the West Bank.
The average Israeli could then carry on their daily life much as we do.
Until that is they were reminded that treating people like animals has consequences.
 
inbetween said:
Israel has just faced its 9/11 and at the same time it was caught with its pants down. There is literally zero chance that they'll talk to Hamas. The only reason for Hamas to come to the table anyway is because Hamas eventually will want a ceasefire so that it can rearm, that is never going to be acceptable to Israel.

Israel would perhaps talk to the Palestinians in order to assist with their safety and wellbeing but certainly not via Hamas whose only goal with regard to the Palestinian population is to use them as a shield. Unfortunately the Palestinians have no voice whatsoever because of Hamas, what if all they want actually is to be safe?

Hamas needs to be removed, it's the only real option for the Palestinians and it's the only option for Israel. Until this is done then I still think that the Palestinian population should be moved to safety away from danger out of Gaza where they can be given aid. We in the west must then hold Israel to account on what happens next.

Anyone who disagrees with the above is just trying to self-justify a bizarre reality which will never happen which is a war where Hamas can do whatever it likes whilst Israel can't.
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Good grief. "Moved to safety" = ethnic cleansing.
 
Palerider said:
I think fact checking is important. They were Peace protesters who did the beating up.
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Why didn’t you fact check the 47 journalists who’ve been killed since the 7th October. That was supposed to be “propaganda”.

I hope the poppy seller gets well soon.
 
inchy14 said:
Sorry mate, whilst I agree about a sovereign state being able to defend itself this isn’t that.
This is vengeance and nothing more and all talk of anything else is just bollocks.
When Abedi bombed the arena should we have murdered his whole family to make sure we got them all?
Because that’s what this is now, just keep killing all Palestinians to ensure no more attacks, forget the fact that these are innocent men women and children.

It’s fucking barbaric and should be condemned by anyone who has any compassion or empathy.

Makes me sick thinking about what these kids are going through.
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1,000% this.
 
Chippy_boy said:
The reality though mate is that Hamas can never "be removed". There will always be a Hamas or a Real Hamas or a Provisional Hamas or whatever, so long as a significant proportion of Palestinians are not happy with their lot. Which means forever, if Israel carry on as they are.

Maybe they just have to accept being permanently at war, forever.
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The ideology of Hamas may live on I agree but probably not as far as the government of Gaza is concerned.

The centre of Gaza has been split by the Israeli army, it's only going to go one way. To be honest I thought this would be a nightmare urban long war spread over years but the ground campaign has so far been rapid. As it's impossible for Hamas to get arms in it's going to be effectively over with very quickly.

The alternative is otherwise as you say they back off, tolerate Hamas and remain at war forever, either suits Israel. This is because the fact is that Israel is a well supported and probably nuclear armed country whereas Hamas definitely is not any of these so there is only ever one winner.

Perpetual ideological war is perhaps inevitable but the outcome of this physical war is also inevitable. It is very unlikely that Hamas will exist in its current form within 3-4 weeks time. They might reset and rebuild but I don't see how the Palestinians benefit from this cycle so it only makes sense to remove Hamas and keep them removed.

Vic said:
Good grief. "Moved to safety" = ethnic cleansing.
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I'm arguing to move the Palestinians temporarily, that is not ethnic cleansing. If Israel invades Gaza and claims it for its own then I will agree, that hasn't happened.

That is unless you think it's better, safer and more appropriate for the Palestinians to live amongst people who decide to build their military infrastructure beneath hospitals?
 
trueblue1972 said:
Would you accept that ?
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Personally, no, I'd do anything possible to avoid it and enable my people to live in peace. And if that meant very significant compromises, I'd make them. Nothing is worth dying over, IMO. You get one life and it's not a rehearsal. There's no afterlife or anything else, you're just dead.
 
inbetween said:
The ideology of Hamas may live on I agree but probably not as far as the government of Gaza is concerned.

The centre of Gaza has been split by the Israeli army, it's only going to go one way. To be honest I thought this would be a nightmare urban long war spread over years but the ground campaign has so far been rapid. As it's impossible for Hamas to get arms in it's going to be effectively over with very quickly.

The alternative is otherwise as you say they back off, tolerate Hamas and remain at war forever. The fact is though that Israel is a well supported and probably nuclear armed country whereas Hamas definitely is not any of these so there is only ever one winner.

Perpetual ideological war is perhaps inevitable but the outcome of this physical war is also inevitable. It is very unlikely that Hamas will exist in its current form within 3-4 weeks time. They might reset and rebuild but I don't see how the Palestinians benefit from this cycle so it only makes sense to remove Hamas and keep them removed.
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Seems you're dreaming as much as the Israelis are. There's no chance of removing Hamas, let alone Hamas2. It's not a building or even a set of people, it's an ideology. I imagine they are signing up more members than they are losing.

And don't forget what this is doing for Israeli-Arab relations more generally. Iran will be thinking about what its next move is and I doubt it is sending Israel a cake.
 
Roachy said:
You're the one who mentioned the law, not me. Just admit you don't know and decided to stick it in to fluff up your opinion. As for the common law bit, crikey.
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Deary me, I even gave you the bloody links. There are laws which govern what you can do in self-defence, and yes they do require proportionality. It is YOU who questioned it. If you don't believe me, it is on YOU to do some digging, not on me to have to justify my comments to you.
 
inbetween said:
The ideology of Hamas may live on I agree but probably not as far as the government of Gaza is concerned.

The centre of Gaza has been split by the Israeli army, it's only going to go one way. To be honest I thought this would be a nightmare urban long war spread over years but the ground campaign has so far been rapid. As it's impossible for Hamas to get arms in it's going to be effectively over with very quickly.

The alternative is otherwise as you say they back off, tolerate Hamas and remain at war forever, either suits Israel. This is because the fact is that Israel is a well supported and probably nuclear armed country whereas Hamas definitely is not any of these so there is only ever one winner.

Perpetual ideological war is perhaps inevitable but the outcome of this physical war is also inevitable. It is very unlikely that Hamas will exist in its current form within 3-4 weeks time. They might reset and rebuild but I don't see how the Palestinians benefit from this cycle so it only makes sense to remove Hamas and keep them removed.


I'm arguing to move the Palestinians temporarily, that is not ethnic cleansing. If Israel invades Gaza and claims it for its own then I will agree, that hasn't happened.

That is unless you think it's better, safer and more appropriate for the Palestinians to live amongst people who decide to build their military infrastructure beneath hospitals?
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Just think about it. 2 million people in tents in a desert for how long - while what happens? Do you really need more evidence that Israel would "claim it for its own"?
 
Chippy_boy said:
Personally, no, I'd do anything possible to avoid it and enable my people to live in peace. And if that meant very significant compromises, I'd make them. Nothing is worth dying over, IMO. You get one life and it's not a rehearsal. There's no afterlife or anything else, you're just dead.
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Exactly where I stand, which is why I questioned just accept it, then concessions have to be made by both sides .
I do believe that hammas as it stands currently will be eliminated, I hope that then someone has a miraculous solution that suits both Palestinians and Israelllis under more moderate rule on both sides
 
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