Middle East Conflict

[Vic]

Here they are having a celebratory dance



Always important to celebrate a bit of ethnic cleansing with a dance

'We need to find a legal way to voluntarily emigrate [Palestinians],' said Israel's far-right national security minister, before a Likud lawmaker explained that in war, 'voluntary is a state you impose [on someone] until they give their consent'

 

[Berts Neck]

It is clear that your zealotry has caused you to lose your faculties, or at least your English comprehension. As evidenced by your other posts, this is clearly very personal to you, and is thus clouding your judgment. For that, I forgive you. Putting words in my mouth and twisting what I said is less easily forgiven.

It is a war zone. One doesn’t have the luxury of your armchair liberalism.



Absolutely, everyone is a threat until proven otherwise.

If I had a child in that war zone, I would hope I’d taught him enough street smarts to not stand around, alone, legs folded, leaning on the corner, as if he was waiting for a bus in Piccadilly!

I’m not sure where your “your country, your rules” comes from, but if it’s my screen name and America you are referring to, that’s silly. If you’re saying Israel and IDF fighting a guerilla war, I’d say you’ve finally stumbled into the truth.

Clearly, you believe Israel is wrong and the Palestinians are somehow right. I’m going to go with Israel and Palestine were operating under a very tense mutual stand off. That was broken on October 7th in a way that was meant to provoke EXACTLY what is happening. Indeed, I believe outside actors have, once again, stepped across the line to increase regional tensions, for reasons I cannot fully know. What I do see, however, is that while it has created rising tensions in this region, it has distracted from tensions in another. All of that is playing out against a backdrop of global elections that are going to affect who are the leaders of half the world’s population.

2024 is a very big year politically, globally. The face of geopolitics could change dramatically. In my own country, the election will definitely have global indications, impacting relations in Europe, Asia and the Middle East.

Does the world want Trump or Biden? Does Israel? Iran? Russia? China? Ukraine? Europe? NATO?

A smacked arse on the street of a war zone? Not exactly earth shattering, but you do you.

I have to say this. You indeed make pertinent points.The thread is divided. OK I get that. But frankly the capacity of the good old USA and the UK on your coat tails to destabilise is abhorrent. Your country from Vietnam through Iraq Afghanistan South America are war mongers. 40% of the worlds exports for weaponry come from your country. Almost three times the level of Russia in second place.We lost our empire yet still control despots from Africa through tax free havens along with the USA..I wish peace in Israel, yes I support the Palestinian cause. I accept the actions of Hamas were deliberate and have destabilised the world,equally I feel that the Arabs were treated badly starting at the Treaty of Versailles and beyond. In fact the only reason you entered WW2 was Pearl Harbour and not before. We had to pay you a fortune in reparations after the war with the last payment in 2006. Sorry but I do not see what you see.

 

[bluethrunthru]

'We need to find a legal way to voluntarily emigrate [Palestinians],' said Israel's far-right national security minister, before a Likud lawmaker explained that in war, 'voluntary is a state you impose [on someone] until they give their consent'

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

No. No, it isn’t and doesn’t. But, hyperbole and ridiculous mental leaps are the name of the game, it appears.

A threat is something to be evaluated and considered. A target is something that has already been evaluated, considered and requires acting upon.

If one is smart, in a war zone where threats are seemingly ubiquitous, one does everything one can to de-escalate one’s own level of threat, so one doesn’t become a target.

Choose to act like you are a threat and you make yourself a target. That’s a life lesson even you should have learned by now.

Thanks for the reasoning that brought it around to the right determination. From the analysis then you can determine the threat. In that video you may deduct that the individual may be a dicker and you can also deduct that he isn’t an immediate threat as the soldier has taken enough swipes to confirm that he isn‘t wearing a suicide vest, and there‘s no evidence to suggest this is a norm for Hamas.

I suppose it’s what amount of brutality you are willing to accept. For me, Israel have gone far past the point of being right.

 

[dublinblue12]

So, about this thing where they've stopped humanitarian aid to 2.3 million people, just because there are allegations of terrorism against 12 out of 30,000 UNRWA workers – that's really troubling, isn't it? Think about all those folks who are in need and now left without help. Its almost like they are intentionally trying to start a famine. Especially when you think about how important that region is strategically. It's not just about the allegations; it's about the bigger picture and the impact on all those people who are caught in the middle.

Also, what about the violence from Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank. It's led to 288 Palestinians losing their lives since October 7th. But there's this noticeable lack of similar actions, like cutting off funding or aid to Israel because of this. It just doesn't seem fair, does it? There's a real imbalance in how collective punishment is being applied here.

 

[BlueNomad]

Oh, brilliant. Open season.

And punching him is going to stop him setting off his imaginary bomb? Should have just shot him. Poor kid should be grateful he's alive.

No, not at all. And I was talking about heightened awareness and potential threats. It’s what law enforcement are taught. Sheesh.

Open season? It’s clear you haven’t grown up around weapons!

 

[BlueNomad]

Thanks for the reasoning that brought it around to the right determination. From the analysis then you can determine the threat. In that video you may deduct that the individual may be a dicker and you can also deduct that he isn’t an immediate threat as the soldier has taken enough swipes to confirm that he isn‘t wearing a suicide vest, and there‘s no evidence to suggest this is a norm for Hamas.

I suppose it’s what amount of brutality you are willing to accept. For me, Israel have gone far past the point of being right.

I try not to make sweeping generalizations from a few seconds of hidden video in a war zone.

No one likes seeing “kids” abused, but lest there be any doubt, a “kid” can be a deadly threat. This time, this one wasn’t.

 

[BlueNomad]

So, about this thing where they've stopped humanitarian aid to 2.3 million people, just because there are allegations of terrorism against 12 out of 30,000 UNRWA workers – that's really troubling, isn't it? Think about all those folks who are in need and now left without help. Its almost like they are intentionally trying to start a famine. Especially when you think about how important that region is strategically. It's not just about the allegations; it's about the bigger picture and the impact on all those people who are caught in the middle.

Also, what about the violence from Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank. It's led to 288 Palestinians losing their lives since October 7th. But there's this noticeable lack of similar actions, like cutting off funding or aid to Israel because of this. It just doesn't seem fair, does it? There's a real imbalance in how collective punishment is being applied here.

Did you say “fair”?

Asymmetric warfare is used to deter action and create an imperative. In this case, it is to root out the terrorists and return the hostages. Is it “fair” there are Jews being used as hostages and human shields? Is it “fair” that the avowed end game is the extermination of the Jews and their removal from that land?

“Fair” seems to be a sliding scale with the Holocaust on one end and a kid getting slapped in the street on the other. Where does blame for those who were murdered in Oct 7 and the hostages fall?

If someone came into your house, raped your daughter, beat your son, killed your wife and then left with the two kids as hostages, where would your personal “fairness” meter be?

And, lastly, don’t take that as me believing in carte blanche as a response, but we seem to have forgotten the events that precipitated this and the general sentiments towards Israel and the Jewish people by their immediate neighbors and those with whom they are expected to live in their midst.

 

[The blue phantom]

If someone came into your house, raped your daughter, beat your son, killed your wife and then left with the two kids as hostages, where would your personal “fairness” meter be?

On that note, If someone did the same and told you and all your family to Fuck off I now own your house, What would you do, With you being a big on Guns would you defend yourself?

 

[BlueNomad]

I have to say this. You indeed make pertinent points.The thread is divided. OK I get that. But frankly the capacity of the good old USA and the UK on your coat tails to destabilise is abhorrent. Your country from Vietnam through Iraq Afghanistan South America are war mongers. 40% of the worlds exports for weaponry come from your country. Almost three times the level of Russia in second place.We lost our empire yet still control despots from Africa through tax free havens along with the USA..I wish peace in Israel, yes I support the Palestinian cause. I accept the actions of Hamas were deliberate and have destabilised the world,equally I feel that the Arabs were treated badly starting at the Treaty of Versailles and beyond. In fact the only reason you entered WW2 was Pearl Harbour and not before. We had to pay you a fortune in reparations after the war with the last payment in 2006. Sorry but I do not see what you see.

Then open your eyes wider. Understand that after two World Wars and a depression within a few decades, the world has grown in leaps and bounds, both economically and in personal prosperity, on the back of a stubborn peace brought about by strength and the ability to project that strength.

You might not like it, or the methods, or even the regional variations that exist in an imperfect world, but it’s a damn sight better than where we were in the last century, given the backdrop of Mutually Assured Destruction on which Europe is the frontlines.

What exactly would NATO be without American money and materials? Look at Russia today. A corrupt and failed petrostate that still wages war on its neighbors and U.S. currently at war with the largest country in Europe. And you talk of arms sales???

Wake up and look around. Do you want the Houthis and Iranians controlling Gulf waters essential to East-West trade? You want China owning the Pacific to the territorial waters of ANZUS?

What does “peace and prosperity” look like in a world of American isolationism?

Who should and should not receive self defence and the weapons needed for it?

Believe me, with the Atlantic and Pacific as massive buffers to invasion or war, just as 22 miles of English Channel have been for the last few millennia, there are millions of Americans who believe their tax dollars would be better spent on Americans, not Brits, Germans, Ukrainians and Jews. You seem to fall into that category.

If so, you’re not going to like the world your kids and grandkids inherit, but, hey, let’s give it a try for a few centuries, shall we?

Rough with the smooth. You can’t have one without the other.

 

[BlueNomad]

On that note, If someone did the same and told you and all your family to Fuck off I now own your house, What would you do, With you being a big on Guns would you defend yourself?

After posing a question and getting it answered with a question, I see we have devolved from the reality of what happened into wider hyperbole, hypotheticals and the reflexive demonism of US gun ownership for personal protection in a society where guns are ubiquitous.

Bravo!

And, if someone went to the Etihad for a nice day out watching City and armed insurgents mowed down half of 112 and took women and children (your wife and kids, maybe?) hostage, then beat and raped them in captivity, would you go back to your beer and watching the match or would you say, “Hey, they’re just making a point! Leave them alone and listen to their tales of woe!”???

We can do this all day!

Fwiw, if someone came to my home to harm my family, I would fight to protect them until the lights went out. You?

 

[The blue phantom]

After posing a question and getting it answered with a question, I see we have devolved from the reality of what happened into wider hyperbole, hypotheticals and the reflexive demonism of US gun ownership for personal protection in a society where guns are ubiquitous.

Bravo!

And, if someone went to the Etihad for a nice day out watching City and armed insurgents mowed down half of 112 and took women and children (your wife and kids, maybe?) hostage, then beat and raped them in captivity, would you go back to your beer and watching the match or would you say, “Hey, they’re just making a point! Leave them alone and listen to their tales of woe!”???

We can do this all day!

Fwiw, if someone came to my home to harm my family, I would fight to protect them until the lights went out. You?

Yes. I was more thinking the settlers stealing Palestinian homes and for good measure beating fuck out of them with Murder in some cases too. It was stated by several posters for the Palestinians not to put up a fight with any weapons and basically hand the keys over.

 

[BlueNomad]

Yes. I was more thinking the settlers stealing Palestinian homes and for good measure beating fuck out of them with Murder in some cases too. It was stated by several posters for the Palestinians not to put up a fight with any weapons and basically hand the keys over.

I believe the partition was imposed in both sides. Since then, numerous local wars have moved the boundaries. It’s a seemingly intractable problem that the greatest minds on earth have struggled to “solve” so I doubt it’ll happen on Bluemoon.

That said, as facts change, so do opinions.

The “fact” that is currently front of mind for me is October 7th is not over for Israeli families. Until every hostage hs returned, dead or alive, shits going to be a little too “real” for the population that both elects and harbors the terrorists that committed the atrocity.

Has the result been asymmetric? Absolutely! Yet, it still hasn’t garnered the release of the innocent people taken.

Why is an innocent Jewish hostage not worth fighting for, but a patch of dry dirt is?

No-one likes to see innocent people caught up in a guerrilla war, but which side chose that?

Should the Israelis simply said, “Hostages as human shields in a densely populated urban area? Oh no, we are screwed. What are their demands so we can give in to them?”

Who should stop first?

Should the hostages be given back, removing the pretext for demolition?

OR

Should the Israelis stop hunting Hamas and trying to free the hostages and simply put them down to “the acceptable losses of war”?

History might suggest to the Israelis that the latter has not been a good course of action for millions of Jews in the past and they’re never going to forget that lesson.

Quandary…but I know one thing that would put the Israeli war machine on shaky ground, as it pulverizes Gaza and displaces thousands…the return of Jewish hostages!

Any marches for that????

Hell, you can’t even post pictures of those taken because the SJWs tear them down!

 

[dublinblue12]

Did you say “fair”?

Asymmetric warfare is used to deter action and create an imperative. In this case, it is to root out the terrorists and return the hostages. Is it “fair” there are Jews being used as hostages and human shields? Is it “fair” that the avowed end game is the extermination of the Jews and their removal from that land?

“Fair” seems to be a sliding scale with the Holocaust on one end and a kid getting slapped in the street on the other. Where does blame for those who were murdered in Oct 7 and the hostages fall?

If someone came into your house, raped your daughter, beat your son, killed your wife and then left with the two kids as hostages, where would your personal “fairness” meter be?

And, lastly, don’t take that as me believing in carte blanche as a response, but we seem to have forgotten the events that precipitated this and the general sentiments towards Israel and the Jewish people by their immediate neighbors and those with whom they are expected to live in their midst.

I don't know much about asymmetric warfare but yeah the collective punishment of suspending humanitarian aid to 2.3 million people due to 12 out of 30,000 UNRWA aid workers allegedly being involved in terrorism sounds unfair and inhumane to me especially when it will almost certainly result in a famine with no aid getting in and the electricity and water supplies cut

 

[BlueNomad]

Yes. I was more thinking the settlers stealing Palestinian homes and for good measure beating fuck out of them with Murder in some cases too. It was stated by several posters for the Palestinians not to put up a fight with any weapons and basically hand the keys over.

Never been my position.

My position is that Palestinians are being held hostage by their own religious leaders into believing Jews are their enemy and must be exterminated. The religious leaders are far away and use them in a proxy war.

This latest round in that war was precipitated by religious zealots who were not acting on behalf of the locals, but the whirlwind they have reaped has placed those locals in the eye of the storm. Who’s fault is that?

Why, if the devastation has been so bad has the Palestinian authority not demanded the return of hostages to stop the carnage?

In the one hand, Israelis are saying “Give us back the hostages if you want the war to end!”

In the other hand, no-one seems to know where they are, who has them, or whether it is worth the war continuing in an effort to (you fill in the justification)!

The Palestinians are being used as props by their leaders, who seem to believe social media videos will turn the world against the Jews and do their job for them.

I’m merely saying, “Not so quick! Give back the hostages, stop the violence and let’s talk about Hamas!” That simple construct seems too difficult for the puppet masters pulling the strings in Gaza. Why?? Are they actually getting what they want??

 

[BlueNomad]

I don't know much about asymmetric warfare but yeah the collective punishment of suspending humanitarian aid to 2.3 million people due to 12 out of 30,000 UNRWA aid workers allegedly being involved in terrorism sounds unfair and inhumane to me especially when it will almost certainly result in a famine with no aid getting in and the electricity and water supplies cut

I’m not in favor of torturing civilian populations, just as I’m not in favor of “aid workers” actually being murderers in disguise.

Again, an action has precipitated a response.

I’m sure the response will change shortly now UNRWA has been removed from the equation.

 

[Blue and true]

Never been my position.

My position is that Palestinians are being held hostage by their own religious leaders into believing Jews are their enemy and must be exterminated. The religious leaders are far away and use them in a proxy war.

This latest round in that war was precipitated by religious zealots who were not acting on behalf of the locals, but the whirlwind they have reaped has placed those locals in the eye of the storm. Who’s fault is that?

Why, if the devastation has been so bad has the Palestinian authority not demanded the return of hostages to stop the carnage?

In the one hand, Israelis are saying “Give us back the hostages if you want the war to end!”

In the other hand, no-one seems to know where they are, who has them, or whether it is worth the war continuing in an effort to (you fill in the justification)!

The Palestinians are being used as props by their leaders, who seem to believe social media videos will turn the world against the Jews and do their job for them.

I’m merely saying, “Not so quick! Give back the hostages, stop the violence and let’s talk about Hamas!” That simple construct seems too difficult for the puppet masters pulling the strings in Gaza. Why?? Are they actually getting what they want??

Could you not flip that to say Israeli Jews are being led to believe, through Zionism at the heart of their government, that Palestinians are their enemy and must be exterminated? Aren't both factions' innocents being played here?

 

[BlueNomad]

Could you not flip that to say Israeli Jews are being led to believe, through Zionism at the heart of their government, that Palestinians are their enemy and must be exterminated? Aren't both factions' innocents being played here?

No, I find the false equivalency a specious argument at best.

Netanyahu needs to go, because I think his personal agenda is not the agenda of the general population.

However, the notion of any, even remote, equivalency between the desires of general Jewish population of Israel and the Palestinians desire to see Israel removed from the map is nonsense.

I also find the use of the term “Zionist” to not be representative of the general population’s desire to live in peaceful coexistence with their neighbors and it is often used as an inflammatory and derogatory oratorical tool to denote some kind of zealotry.

 

[The blue phantom]

Never been my position.

My position is that Palestinians are being held hostage by their own religious leaders into believing Jews are their enemy and must be exterminated. The religious leaders are far away and use them in a proxy war.

This latest round in that war was precipitated by religious zealots who were not acting on behalf of the locals, but the whirlwind they have reaped has placed those locals in the eye of the storm. Who’s fault is that?

Why, if the devastation has been so bad has the Palestinian authority not demanded the return of hostages to stop the carnage?

In the one hand, Israelis are saying “Give us back the hostages if you want the war to end!”

In the other hand, no-one seems to know where they are, who has them, or whether it is worth the war continuing in an effort to (you fill in the justification)!

The Palestinians are being used as props by their leaders, who seem to believe social media videos will turn the world against the Jews and do their job for them.

I’m merely saying, “Not so quick! Give back the hostages, stop the violence and let’s talk about Hamas!” That simple construct seems too difficult for the puppet masters pulling the strings in Gaza. Why?? Are they actually getting what they want??

Thanks for not answering the Question as to what the Palestinians should do regarding the theft of their Houses.

 

[Blue and true]

No, I find the false equivalency a specious argument at best.

Netanyahu needs to go, because I think his personal agenda is not the agenda of the general population.

However, the notion of any, even remote, equivalency between the desires of general Jewish population of Israel and the Palestinians desire to see Israel removed from the map is nonsense.

I also find the use of the term “Zionist” to not be representative of the general population and used as an inflammatory and derogatory oratorical tool.

But how have you deduced the majority of innocent Palestinians want Israel removed from the map? Moreover, how have you deduced many of the innocent Jewish population of Israel want Palestine removed? You seem to be falling into the trap of "most Palestinians (and by extension Muslims) are intolerant and monomaniacal"; you're clearly an intelligent poster so it's a trap you shouldn't be falling into.

And I don't think Zionism is a flimsy oratorical tool. It's a truism of the state of Israel. When the state's leaders have coerced their entire military to stray perilously close to the boundaries of genocide, with the aim of wiping out Palestine and its people as an entity, we can categorise such actions as Zionist. It's Zionism that pervades the nation from the head down.