Morality

[Rocket-footed kolarov]

Carefully sieving the answer to pick what you need, so let define it further by dictionary:

"religion  
Use Religion in a sentence
re·li·gion [ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions."

Number 1 is quite interesting as it states about the use of morality, but 2 and 3 underlines what I have said. Groups eventually become a society as it expands. Society is susceptible to a moral code which can only be absorbed back within itself which will and does alter a view that can be seen as 'religious' upon that said society.

Religious outlook evolves eventually. Maybe not to the point where it turns 180%, but it does and will incorporate the views of the society involved.

It becomes more 'tolerate' if you will, because society demands as much.

That is a fact, the world over.

So the fact remains, your flight of fantasy into semantic sophistry notwithstanding, that religion and society are separate entities, not inextricably linked, and therefore two different things.
I accept that morality changes as society diffuses, but that doesn't render religion and society mutually dependant.
Proof of this is the fact that society existed long before recognised religion did.

Did it?? If religion includes the code of 'devotion' and 'ritual' then in the early stages of Man, the strongest were always worshipped, be that Man or Beast. That would be your infant society creating its infant religion, then.

So I asked "are they different?", earlier.

But... as I take your example, I note that society must have given birth to religion and not the other way around. But are you telling me that religion can exist within a vacuum, using the dictionary sense? If so, why would it bend to the moral of the society of the time??

I have just deleted many more types of questions as they would have elongated the point of this morning's thought. I know what I'm like when I let my thoughts flow.

I think I DO like my "flights of fantasy", after all...

NF answers this anyway because he qualified it with recognised religion, there would also be the distinction between complex societies and tribal cultures. The point made that religion and society are two separate entities is real and valid but it doesn't diminish the fact that religion grew uncurtailed to dominate society and have a Svengali effect over it. You sound generally interested in this topic and the references I provided earlier may give you insight and answer some of the questions you seem to be asking.

 

[Blue Tooth]

Interesting?...maybe?....you decide...elements are perhaps pertinent in this debate.

http://www.upworthy.com/best-explan...eard-and-im-practically-an-atheist?g=2&c=ufb1

Now THAT is the closest anyone has gotten to how I think. My view is slightly altered, but I expect that would be the case. I would hazard a guess that he, too, would agree the science and belief are not repellent of each other.

I am, somewhat, bemused to be told I must 'pick a side'!!

I have 'Free Will' to do as I please.

There are no sides in non-dualism ;)

 

[Bigga]

So the fact remains, your flight of fantasy into semantic sophistry notwithstanding, that religion and society are separate entities, not inextricably linked, and therefore two different things.
I accept that morality changes as society diffuses, but that doesn't render religion and society mutually dependant.
Proof of this is the fact that society existed long before recognised religion did.

Did it?? If religion includes the code of 'devotion' and 'ritual' then in the early stages of Man, the strongest were always worshipped, be that Man or Beast. That would be your infant society creating its infant religion, then.

So I asked "are they different?", earlier.

But... as I take your example, I note that society must have given birth to religion and not the other way around. But are you telling me that religion can exist within a vacuum, using the dictionary sense? If so, why would it bend to the moral of the society of the time??

I have just deleted many more types of questions as they would have elongated the point of this morning's thought. I know what I'm like when I let my thoughts flow.

I think I DO like my "flights of fantasy", after all...

NF answers this anyway because he qualified it with recognised religion, there would also be the distinction between complex societies and tribal cultures. The point made that religion and society are two separate entities is real and valid but it doesn't diminish the fact that religion grew uncurtailed to dominate society and have a Svengali effect over it. You sound generally interested in this topic and the references I provided earlier may give you insight and answer some of the questions you seem to be asking.

I take into account what you're saying, but my point remains the same for recognised religions or not, We are, by the very nature of our being, in awe of powerful things until they are answered with clarity.

Human beings can be controlled by the words of religion or by the words of science. It doesn't matter cos there will always be leaders and always be followers and every now and then a straggler that sits on the side watching the procession of both with great amusement...

 

[BigJimLittleJim]

Interesting the way this debate has meandered around, it seems the Vic is scared shitless of dying and that's yer lot, and others are moving into the topic of how we are organised and influenced in our various societies, in differing times.

Yes Vic, the evidence suggests that we are all a bunch of chemicals, evolving to survive our time on this planet, and we use what we can to make our genetic progeny also continue in as much comfort and prosperity as possible. We can replicate religious experiences with drugs and hypnotic suggestion, there is no mystery about someone having a mystical turn, it's all about the chemicals, cool 'tho they can be.

There is no God, when you die, there is nothing - the sooner you accept this, the easier it will be when you approach your final days, hopefully. Harsh, scary, depressing, but true.

Once you have accepted the reality of life, in all it's complexities, you can begin to understand how amazing the human race is, in it's ability to formulate societal structures and beliefs to encourage co-operation and respect for other human life, even other animal life for the more enlightened amongst us.

Laws of the land, societal standards and morals, religious beliefs, all these are tools by which the human race chooses to live in peace and harmony with each other, rather than go down the "survival of the fittest" route, because co-operation trumps individual self preservation the majority of the time.

A clear example of this would be if you act like a ****, then your family, your genetic legacy, can, and often does, suffer for your selfishness, as of course do you - this concept is clear to the vast majority of societal members, and this is how we have evolved so spectacularly to where we are today, the pinnacle of all life on earth, at any point in history.

We no longer need a God, or religious structure, to continue evolving, indeed I suspect the remnants of organised religion are holding us back from truly embracing our humanity for the wonder that it can be.

So, my advice to one and all, man up, stop being such a pussy about death, and don't be a twat to your fellow creatures, mostly works for me :)

 

[mammutly]

Hot Fuzz illustrated society as religion
- The Greater Good

It depends partly how you define the terms, but early societies weren't large or secure enough to be secular. They needed an explicitly shared belief system to survive.

 

[Rocket-footed kolarov]

Hot Fuzz illustrated society as religion
- The Greater Good

It depends partly how you define the terms, but early societies weren't large or secure enough to be secular. They needed an explicitly shared belief system to survive.

Yes this video gives a good explanation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP2a44j-ueY

 

[Plaything of the gods]

Interesting the way this debate has meandered around, it seems the Vic is scared shitless of dying and that's yer lot, and others are moving into the topic of how we are organised and influenced in our various societies, in differing times.

Yes Vic, the evidence suggests that we are all a bunch of chemicals, evolving to survive our time on this planet, and we use what we can to make our genetic progeny also continue in as much comfort and prosperity as possible. We can replicate religious experiences with drugs and hypnotic suggestion, there is no mystery about someone having a mystical turn, it's all about the chemicals, cool 'tho they can be.

There is no God, when you die, there is nothing - the sooner you accept this, the easier it will be when you approach your final days, hopefully. Harsh, scary, depressing, but true.

Once you have accepted the reality of life, in all it's complexities, you can begin to understand how amazing the human race is, in it's ability to formulate societal structures and beliefs to encourage co-operation and respect for other human life, even other animal life for the more enlightened amongst us.

Laws of the land, societal standards and morals, religious beliefs, all these are tools by which the human race chooses to live in peace and harmony with each other, rather than go down the "survival of the fittest" route, because co-operation trumps individual self preservation the majority of the time.

A clear example of this would be if you act like a ****, then your family, your genetic legacy, can, and often does, suffer for your selfishness, as of course do you - this concept is clear to the vast majority of societal members, and this is how we have evolved so spectacularly to where we are today, the pinnacle of all life on earth, at any point in history.

We no longer need a God, or religious structure, to continue evolving, indeed I suspect the remnants of organised religion are holding us back from truly embracing our humanity for the wonder that it can be.

So, my advice to one and all, man up, stop being such a pussy about death, and don't be a twat to your fellow creatures, mostly works for me :)

Great post (have really only just joined BM?) Just that, whilst we no longer need the Abrahamic God, we need something better than Capitalist greed.

 

[BigJimLittleJim]

Interesting the way this debate has meandered around, it seems the Vic is scared shitless of dying and that's yer lot, and others are moving into the topic of how we are organised and influenced in our various societies, in differing times.

Yes Vic, the evidence suggests that we are all a bunch of chemicals, evolving to survive our time on this planet, and we use what we can to make our genetic progeny also continue in as much comfort and prosperity as possible. We can replicate religious experiences with drugs and hypnotic suggestion, there is no mystery about someone having a mystical turn, it's all about the chemicals, cool 'tho they can be.

There is no God, when you die, there is nothing - the sooner you accept this, the easier it will be when you approach your final days, hopefully. Harsh, scary, depressing, but true.

Once you have accepted the reality of life, in all it's complexities, you can begin to understand how amazing the human race is, in it's ability to formulate societal structures and beliefs to encourage co-operation and respect for other human life, even other animal life for the more enlightened amongst us.

Laws of the land, societal standards and morals, religious beliefs, all these are tools by which the human race chooses to live in peace and harmony with each other, rather than go down the "survival of the fittest" route, because co-operation trumps individual self preservation the majority of the time.

A clear example of this would be if you act like a ****, then your family, your genetic legacy, can, and often does, suffer for your selfishness, as of course do you - this concept is clear to the vast majority of societal members, and this is how we have evolved so spectacularly to where we are today, the pinnacle of all life on earth, at any point in history.

We no longer need a God, or religious structure, to continue evolving, indeed I suspect the remnants of organised religion are holding us back from truly embracing our humanity for the wonder that it can be.

So, my advice to one and all, man up, stop being such a pussy about death, and don't be a twat to your fellow creatures, mostly works for me :)

Great post (have really only just joined BM?) Just that, whilst we no longer need the Abrahamic God, we need something better than Capitalist greed.

Thanks PTOTG,
yes been lurking for ages, really enjoying BM's lunacy, but not felt the need to register until I read about Derek Calderbank's death in the Unicorn Athletic thread on Weds in the General forum, he was my old manager, and my family were involved with the club from the start, and still are as my nephew plays for them.
He was a massive Blue, all his life, and must have been responsible for maybe thousands of kids loving City and playing football - I suppose he's a great example of how if we are altruistic without the frame of religion and afterlife reward (don't know if he was religious tbh, must have been hard for him to get to church with all those weekend games to attend!), it brings us a higher quality of life in the here and now - the goodwill and friendship he must have enjoyed from all those kids, former players, their parents etc.. must have been a massive comfort and motivator for him to continue putting his energies into helping others.
My Dad also managed a lot of Unicorn teams, and went on to be treasurer of Wythenshawe Town, and wherever he goes, there's always someone who he's managed or known thru the football, and I know he loves that, Derek must have had that ten times over.
Being a good Citizen has real and quantifiable benefits to the individual over selfish acts of greed, no need to bring religion into the equation anymore for me. Because my Dad and Derek were/are central members of their community, this has knock on benefits to family (genetic bloodline), we have loads of people who see us also as kindred spirits, and again, there is goodwill where perhaps there would be indifference were it not for the community minded activities of our elders.
I certainly won't denigrate the great community work church is involved in, just that we don't need to justify it with deferred rewards after we shuffle off this mortal coil, the benefits are immediate and far reaching right now.
However, Cameron can stick his Big Society up his arse, the wanker.

 

[Blue Tooth]

A clear example of this would be if you act like a ****, then your family, your genetic legacy, can, and often does, suffer for your selfishness, as of course do you - this concept is clear to the vast majority of societal members, and this is how we have evolved so spectacularly to where we are today, the pinnacle of all life on earth, at any point in history.

Tell that to the Rockerfellers ;)

 

[BigJimLittleJim]

A clear example of this would be if you act like a ****, then your family, your genetic legacy, can, and often does, suffer for your selfishness, as of course do you - this concept is clear to the vast majority of societal members, and this is how we have evolved so spectacularly to where we are today, the pinnacle of all life on earth, at any point in history.

Tell that to the Rockerfellers ;)

Don't think my analogy works for Thundercunts apparently :)