Morality

[BlueHammer85]

Yes this, and I think your brother is missing the point when it comes to evolution, he is constantly referring to survival of the fittest but humans are social animals and evolution remains on the social group functioning. You can inject other ideas and values into your decision making it doesn't have to be meaningless.

Ok... still going around in circles it seems ...


----

repeating myself over and over again, I'm sure you feel the same.....but we are unable to move on since I will not accept a contradiction in all that you believe.....ok so here we go again, please read slowly

An absolute wrong is just that....absolute, it is wrong regardless of weather anyone believes it or not....these to you DO NOT EXIST....

FINE FOR GOODNESS SAKE, you now have admitted that through whatever natural process you think they come from they are relative, there are no ABSOLUTE MORAL laws in Nature, it's your brain made of chemical composition.....YOU AND WHATEVER GOES THROUGH YOUR CHEMICALLY MADE UP BRAIN.......MEAN NOTHING

in nature there is no meaning....how can you attach meaning to a meaningless world

Humans, apes, pens, pigs, flys and cars are all in a natural world a simple product of atoms....all of them....you have no special place amongst any of them, if humans are at the top of a food chain that's because luck, circumstance and a combination of atoms and chemicals have formed together to produce what we call a human...it is important......on that basis, what are morals....they are the product of electrical activity of the brain

ABSOLUTELY AND NOTHING MORE THAN THAT.....YOU MEAN ULTIMATELY NOTHING

Whenever you attach meaning you are appealing to either

A) yourself (chemical brain)

B) Higher Purpose

Now that IS THE NATURAL WORLD

So you have said as an Atheist you can have morals.....OF COURSE YOU CAN

But you cannot claim that your right has any kind of meaning, there is NONE

RIGHT AND WRONG, DO NOT Exist just your version of it

Your chemical brain says it is wrong to invade Iraq

Mine says its right

If there is no absolute right and wrong and morals have somehow evolved what is this right you are appealing to

There is no standard to what you are appealing....

You have even managed to contradict yourself AGAIN in your sentence....and I quote

Remember if there is no absolutes what are you comparing your standard too? What is THE BASIS AND SOURCE OF WRONG.........so here we go.......

'' I dont accept that being a Athiest means i cant have a moral view on things in life - of course i can (and should) feel that it's wrong for someone to impose suffering on someone else. Just because i don't believe there is an afterlife doesn't mean that i don't want to make things better for those that i leave behind. ''

there are no absolutes but apparently it's an absolute wrong to impose suffering

You are proclaiming a naturalist world view devoid of ULTIMATE meaning and then claiming that your view is.....WRONG

You need to really understand the first few sentences, and really think through the implications of Athiesm, if you attach meaning to your life - your Athiest friend summed it up beautifully and I will end on that note.....

... '' It is a smokescreen, an illusion to the very hard fact that Athiesm when all is stripped away to its core is purely natural and meaning is an illusion to this harsh fact ''

This is so simple yet unbelievably hard to accept since it means all of us end in the grave and values and purposes exist only and purely in our minds

My right is no more meaningful than your wrong, they are the result off chemical activity

Except you confuse absence of belief in God, as absence in belief in anything. Skashion has filled the hole with libertarianism, I might say I have replaced it with humanism. Lets take your two points, a doctor though irreligious is fulfilled by helping those in need, and probably because of the chemical response and higher purpose-The need to feel you have had a positive effect on the world. You base your belief in god in the need for judgement, but you don't take into account judgement by society.
Your view of meaning is totally different from what we view as meaning it may give you happiness but that is it, you have no more meaning than me anyway. You can take comfort that you will be rewarded in an afterlife, I take comfort in the fact that I won't be judged by an unpredictable mafia boss when I am dead.

It is hard to accept, but it is more likely the case than not. what is the point of somebody living and dieing young?-what is the point of stillborn children? They had the chance of life. The chance to enjoy. Animals have no meaning beyond existence in almost all theological interpretations so why should we, is something you address. The point is they don't, but they lack the level of self awareness as we do. With self awareness we are tied to eternal struggle to find meaning, it may be paradoxical it may be ultimately pointless in the end but it gets us by and that is perhaps enough.

Ok so your going round and round in circles explaining why life has meaning to the INDIVIDUAL, the doctor who is irreligious has FULFILLED (your words) his life with meaning, he has with chemical response (your word) created a meaning when in fact there actually is none apart from in his mind.

You see when you do this you consistently appeal to a mind, brain whatever.....meaning goes beyond the brain.

It is amazing you have even subconsciously mentioned.......HIGHER PURPOSE!! Well if that isn't code for God I'm in wonderland.

You mention judgement by society, what is that judgment since you don't believe in an absolute moral right, it means that morals are relative, simply an idea that we as evolved chimps live by...

Like I've said a million times right and wrong do not exist in a meaningless life, in a completely natural world life is just that.....you are atoms plus time plus chance

Right and wrong and meaning are electrical impulses and goo in your brain.....think about it deep enough and you come to the devastating truth of the Atheistic world view, meaning is simply a product of brain gunk, ULTIMATELY meaning is what you make up for yourself, if society judges you, so what, the doctor who cured cancer ends up dead rotting in the ground.....the same as jimmy Saville ! In the end whatever you do, say or behave ends in rot the same as the rest of society.

Your last paragraph sums it up and I think we're nearly there, in it you say struggle to find meaning and ULTIMATELY pointless but its enough to get us through.....

That's it you got it.....meaning is an illusion and therefore so is right and wrong, and therefore your version of right and wrong is....your just saying what is right to your brain goo and your feelings as a result from chemical impulses.

So when you next say xxxxxxx is the right thing to do or xxxxxx is wrong, ask yourself, in all reality what is the source of right and wrong, if there isn't one its your version of it and your version only

 

[Bigga]

What tickles me mostly, is the for the explanation of 'thought process' it is described as 'chemicals'!! What does this actually mean??!

Explain it without all the bullsh*t dodging!

 

[SWP's back]

Ok... still going around in circles it seems ...


----

repeating myself over and over again, I'm sure you feel the same.....but we are unable to move on since I will not accept a contradiction in all that you believe.....ok so here we go again, please read slowly

An absolute wrong is just that....absolute, it is wrong regardless of weather anyone believes it or not....these to you DO NOT EXIST....

FINE FOR GOODNESS SAKE, you now have admitted that through whatever natural process you think they come from they are relative, there are no ABSOLUTE MORAL laws in Nature, it's your brain made of chemical composition.....YOU AND WHATEVER GOES THROUGH YOUR CHEMICALLY MADE UP BRAIN.......MEAN NOTHING

in nature there is no meaning....how can you attach meaning to a meaningless world

Humans, apes, pens, pigs, flys and cars are all in a natural world a simple product of atoms....all of them....you have no special place amongst any of them, if humans are at the top of a food chain that's because luck, circumstance and a combination of atoms and chemicals have formed together to produce what we call a human...it is important......on that basis, what are morals....they are the product of electrical activity of the brain

ABSOLUTELY AND NOTHING MORE THAN THAT.....YOU MEAN ULTIMATELY NOTHING

Whenever you attach meaning you are appealing to either

A) yourself (chemical brain)

B) Higher Purpose

Now that IS THE NATURAL WORLD

So you have said as an Atheist you can have morals.....OF COURSE YOU CAN

But you cannot claim that your right has any kind of meaning, there is NONE

RIGHT AND WRONG, DO NOT Exist just your version of it

Your chemical brain says it is wrong to invade Iraq

Mine says its right

If there is no absolute right and wrong and morals have somehow evolved what is this right you are appealing to

There is no standard to what you are appealing....

You have even managed to contradict yourself AGAIN in your sentence....and I quote

Remember if there is no absolutes what are you comparing your standard too? What is THE BASIS AND SOURCE OF WRONG.........so here we go.......

'' I dont accept that being a Athiest means i cant have a moral view on things in life - of course i can (and should) feel that it's wrong for someone to impose suffering on someone else. Just because i don't believe there is an afterlife doesn't mean that i don't want to make things better for those that i leave behind. ''

there are no absolutes but apparently it's an absolute wrong to impose suffering

You are proclaiming a naturalist world view devoid of ULTIMATE meaning and then claiming that your view is.....WRONG

You need to really understand the first few sentences, and really think through the implications of Athiesm, if you attach meaning to your life - your Athiest friend summed it up beautifully and I will end on that note.....

... '' It is a smokescreen, an illusion to the very hard fact that Athiesm when all is stripped away to its core is purely natural and meaning is an illusion to this harsh fact ''

This is so simple yet unbelievably hard to accept since it means all of us end in the grave and values and purposes exist only and purely in our minds

My right is no more meaningful than your wrong, they are the result off chemical activity

Except you confuse absence of belief in God, as absence in belief in anything. Skashion has filled the hole with libertarianism, I might say I have replaced it with humanism. Lets take your two points, a doctor though irreligious is fulfilled by helping those in need, and probably because of the chemical response and higher purpose-The need to feel you have had a positive effect on the world. You base your belief in god in the need for judgement, but you don't take into account judgement by society.
Your view of meaning is totally different from what we view as meaning it may give you happiness but that is it, you have no more meaning than me anyway. You can take comfort that you will be rewarded in an afterlife, I take comfort in the fact that I won't be judged by an unpredictable mafia boss when I am dead.

It is hard to accept, but it is more likely the case than not. what is the point of somebody living and dieing young?-what is the point of stillborn children? They had the chance of life. The chance to enjoy. Animals have no meaning beyond existence in almost all theological interpretations so why should we, is something you address. The point is they don't, but they lack the level of self awareness as we do. With self awareness we are tied to eternal struggle to find meaning, it may be paradoxical it may be ultimately pointless in the end but it gets us by and that is perhaps enough.

Ok so your going round and round in circles explaining why life has meaning to the INDIVIDUAL, the doctor who is irreligious has FULFILLED (your words) his life with meaning, he has with chemical response (your word) created a meaning when in fact there actually is none apart from in his mind.

You see when you do this you consistently appeal to a mind, brain whatever.....meaning goes beyond the brain.

It is amazing you have even subconsciously mentioned.......HIGHER PURPOSE!! Well if that isn't code for God I'm in wonderland.

You mention judgement by society, what is that judgment since you don't believe in an absolute moral right, it means that morals are relative, simply an idea that we as evolved chimps live by...

Like I've said a million times right and wrong do not exist in a meaningless life, in a completely natural world life is just that.....you are atoms plus time plus chance

Right and wrong and meaning are electrical impulses and goo in your brain.....think about it deep enough and you come to the devastating truth of the Atheistic world view, meaning is simply a product of brain gunk, ULTIMATELY meaning is what you make up for yourself, if society judges you, so what, the doctor who cured cancer ends up dead rotting in the ground.....the same as jimmy Saville ! In the end whatever you do, say or behave ends in rot the same as the rest of society.

Your last paragraph sums it up and I think we're nearly there, in it you say struggle to find meaning and ULTIMATELY pointless but its enough to get us through.....

That's it you got it.....meaning is an illusion and therefore so is right and wrong, and therefore your version of right and wrong is....your just saying what is right to your brain goo and your feelings as a result from chemical impulses.

So when you next say xxxxxxx is the right thing to do or xxxxxx is wrong, ask yourself, in all reality what is the source of right and wrong, if there isn't one its your version of it and your version only

What part of that do you struggle to understand?

Who is the better person? The one that helps others and doesn't harm others, of their own free will or the guy that is blackmailed into being "good" with the promise of heaven and threat of hell.

Personally, I tend to think you suffer from psychosis and hope you get better.

 

[pominoz]

What tickles me mostly, is the for the explanation of 'thought process' it is described as 'chemicals'!! What does this actually mean??!

Explain it without all the bullsh*t dodging!

It is all chemicals + electricity.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWg0cWFQiiY[/youtube]

 

[Bigga]

What tickles me mostly, is the for the explanation of 'thought process' it is described as 'chemicals'!! What does this actually mean??!

Explain it without all the bullsh*t dodging!

It is all chemicals + electricity.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWg0cWFQiiY[/youtube]

This is what is called 'the best guess'.

Chemicals + electricity = forming words in your mind(have they found where the mind is situated yet?).

Yet it is so 'simply' explained...

 

[SWP's back]

What tickles me mostly, is the for the explanation of 'thought process' it is described as 'chemicals'!! What does this actually mean??!

Explain it without all the bullsh*t dodging!

It is all chemicals + electricity.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWg0cWFQiiY[/youtube]

This is what is called 'the best guess'.

Chemicals + electricity = forming words in your mind(have they found where the mind is situated yet?).

Yet it is so 'simply' explained...

Dogs, mice, geese all think. Do they have souls and go to heaven then?

 

[Skashion]

I really miss Damocles.

 

[Bigga]

It is all chemicals + electricity.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWg0cWFQiiY[/youtube]

This is what is called 'the best guess'.

Chemicals + electricity = forming words in your mind(have they found where the mind is situated yet?).

Yet it is so 'simply' explained...

Dogs, mice, geese all think. Do they have souls and go to heaven then?

Since I never mentioned 'heaven'. You can answer that.

I shall ask if you think they have a soul, though?

 

[BlueHammer85]

I really miss Damocles.

Whats happened to him ?

I know he would give a clear explanation to the meaning of Atheist morality that would put this to bed

 

[SWP's back]

This is what is called 'the best guess'.

Chemicals + electricity = forming words in your mind(have they found where the mind is situated yet?).

Yet it is so 'simply' explained...

Dogs, mice, geese all think. Do they have souls and go to heaven then?

Since I never mentioned 'heaven'. You can answer that.

I shall ask if you think they have a soul, though?

No I don't think they do. Just like us.<br /><br />-- Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:00 pm --<br /><br />

I really miss Damocles.

Whats happened to him ?

I know he would give a clear explanation to the meaning of Atheist morality that would put this to bed

Nothing will put this to be as your brother is a psychotic.