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NDJ Holland
- Thread starter BlueMoon93
- Start date
JohnMaddocksAxe
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 30 Apr 2008
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- 2,854
I'll give you a controversial opinion about De Jong.
Over the past ten years the 'holding' midfielder has gone from being a clogger with no skill to an important position in a lot of teams.
As it has got more and more coverage and players playing there have got more and more praise, every man and has dog has suddenly jumped on the bandwagon.
You have now got people who see or hear that a player is playing that role and, because they have heard that the way to play the role is 'simple' in manner, they are willing to crack one offf, as someone above puts it, as distinctly average displays in that role.
The most celebrated person in that role over the past few years was Makelele and, despite the reputation of doing nothing but tackle and pass it 3 yards, he was actually very good at spotting a forward pass (not the Beckham esque hoof, but the intricate, break building slide pass forward to another midfielder in the main) and was hugely influencial in attack (by starting them flowing) and obviously defence. He also, due to his ability on the ball, had a huge influence over the tempo of the game and ensuring that Chelsea probed with possession and moved the ball quickly around the pitch to probe different areas.
Hammann, when he was outstanding under Sven for 8 months, played the same role. If anything his strength was even more exagerated when it came to dictating the tempo of the game and using the ball with huge intelligence to set up attacks, punish opposition midfielders when they were out of position with clever balls exploiting it and retaining possession in ridiculously tight situations. Obviously his chasing skills weren't up to the likes of Makelele though.
Mascherano, Hargreaves and others all have a huge influence over the game from that position too.
Now, De Jong, for my money, either whilst he has been here or last night, has nowhere near the amount of influence on a game that any of the above have.
I hear people banging on about how he put some tackles in in a game or how he ran a midfield but for me it's just doing the basics, albeit maybe well, of the role and people wetting themselves because they have this idea in their mind that the role is so simple that playing it well involves only making a few eye catching tackles and playing a very easy pass.
It doesn't. The above all do so much more than that. Another thing that Hammann did so well was read the game and, despite being slower than Richard Jobson, be in the right place to kill an attack time and again. Last season, despite playing an unheard of TWO holding midfielders, the team was broken on through midfield time and time again, with neither Kompany or De Jong consistently stiffling teams with any sort of regularity.
De Jong's use of the ball so far in his City career pales into insignificance compared to others that play the role. The five yard, non challenging, no threatening pass is not the staple of the position. It's just one of many options the player should use, and the least offensive one. For me De Jong has not shown the willingness to play football that gets attacks moving when he wins the ball. His range and ambition of passing, and again, I'm not talking about the glory 50 yarder) has been nowhere some othersn who play in that position and without that speed of thought and forward passing you can't be playing the role at a class level imo.
He also has shown nothing like the ability and influence that Hammann showed in the same role, with Hammann's reading of the play, influence on the game and intelligent use of the ball being far superior.
The above might sound like an attack on De Jong. It's not. I suppose if anything it's an 'attack' (if you want to see it as an attack on anyoen) on people who I feel have heard that the position is simple and therefore are too willing to lavish praise on very simple things.
I actually expect him to be far better this season and have faith in him to develop into a top player in that position in this league. But there is no way I am having that he has done it yet. He has done the very bare minimum in that role whilst here.
Yes, he has run around a lot, he has put some eye catching tackles in. But his reading of the game, stiffling of opposition (especially as there were two of them supposed to be doing it last season) and use of the ball has been nothing more than average.
If anyone wants to tell me that De Jong is having anywhere near as much influence on City games at present as Hammann was 20 months ago then I will be astonished.
De Jong is a better player than he has shown imo. But he needs to show it.
Over the past ten years the 'holding' midfielder has gone from being a clogger with no skill to an important position in a lot of teams.
As it has got more and more coverage and players playing there have got more and more praise, every man and has dog has suddenly jumped on the bandwagon.
You have now got people who see or hear that a player is playing that role and, because they have heard that the way to play the role is 'simple' in manner, they are willing to crack one offf, as someone above puts it, as distinctly average displays in that role.
The most celebrated person in that role over the past few years was Makelele and, despite the reputation of doing nothing but tackle and pass it 3 yards, he was actually very good at spotting a forward pass (not the Beckham esque hoof, but the intricate, break building slide pass forward to another midfielder in the main) and was hugely influencial in attack (by starting them flowing) and obviously defence. He also, due to his ability on the ball, had a huge influence over the tempo of the game and ensuring that Chelsea probed with possession and moved the ball quickly around the pitch to probe different areas.
Hammann, when he was outstanding under Sven for 8 months, played the same role. If anything his strength was even more exagerated when it came to dictating the tempo of the game and using the ball with huge intelligence to set up attacks, punish opposition midfielders when they were out of position with clever balls exploiting it and retaining possession in ridiculously tight situations. Obviously his chasing skills weren't up to the likes of Makelele though.
Mascherano, Hargreaves and others all have a huge influence over the game from that position too.
Now, De Jong, for my money, either whilst he has been here or last night, has nowhere near the amount of influence on a game that any of the above have.
I hear people banging on about how he put some tackles in in a game or how he ran a midfield but for me it's just doing the basics, albeit maybe well, of the role and people wetting themselves because they have this idea in their mind that the role is so simple that playing it well involves only making a few eye catching tackles and playing a very easy pass.
It doesn't. The above all do so much more than that. Another thing that Hammann did so well was read the game and, despite being slower than Richard Jobson, be in the right place to kill an attack time and again. Last season, despite playing an unheard of TWO holding midfielders, the team was broken on through midfield time and time again, with neither Kompany or De Jong consistently stiffling teams with any sort of regularity.
De Jong's use of the ball so far in his City career pales into insignificance compared to others that play the role. The five yard, non challenging, no threatening pass is not the staple of the position. It's just one of many options the player should use, and the least offensive one. For me De Jong has not shown the willingness to play football that gets attacks moving when he wins the ball. His range and ambition of passing, and again, I'm not talking about the glory 50 yarder) has been nowhere some othersn who play in that position and without that speed of thought and forward passing you can't be playing the role at a class level imo.
He also has shown nothing like the ability and influence that Hammann showed in the same role, with Hammann's reading of the play, influence on the game and intelligent use of the ball being far superior.
The above might sound like an attack on De Jong. It's not. I suppose if anything it's an 'attack' (if you want to see it as an attack on anyoen) on people who I feel have heard that the position is simple and therefore are too willing to lavish praise on very simple things.
I actually expect him to be far better this season and have faith in him to develop into a top player in that position in this league. But there is no way I am having that he has done it yet. He has done the very bare minimum in that role whilst here.
Yes, he has run around a lot, he has put some eye catching tackles in. But his reading of the game, stiffling of opposition (especially as there were two of them supposed to be doing it last season) and use of the ball has been nothing more than average.
If anyone wants to tell me that De Jong is having anywhere near as much influence on City games at present as Hammann was 20 months ago then I will be astonished.
De Jong is a better player than he has shown imo. But he needs to show it.
coulsonblue
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 1 Mar 2007
- Messages
- 1,519
markbmcfc said:My opinion - albeit controversial, people who think De Jong is shit dont understand the tactical side of football.
100% Correct. He isn't supposed to make forward passes.
Chelsea - Makelele, Essien
Liverpool - Hamann, Mascherano
Arsenal - Vieira, Gilberto, Flamini
United - Keane, Carrick
They all have them. It's what every team needs.
More examples:
Spain - Senna
Italy - Gattuso, Pirlo
Brasil - Gilberto
Matt Diablo
Well-Known Member
anyone who didn't / doesn't rate De Jong is a knob....
KentBlue
Well-Known Member
DJ's one of those players that you seldom notice. But you'd bloody soon notice it if he weren't there. At what he does I'd say the guy is immense. We haven't a player like that for ages. I know people will say Didi, but he struggled a lot. DJ is a lot better than Hamman in that role and he'll go on to be one of our most influential signings - of that I'm sure.
JohnMaddocksAxe
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 30 Apr 2008
- Messages
- 2,854
100% Correct. He isn't supposed to make forward passes.
Sorry, but that is one of the most comincal things I've read on here for a while.
That it is designed to be in agreement with a statement accusing people of not having a clue, just makes it better.
That is exactly what I am saying about people hearing that the position is a 'simple' one and therefore taking it far, far too literally and to extremes.
Show me a top class holding midfielder who doesn't pass forward, or even one who rarely passes forward and I will show you an alien from the planet fogpaibgipab.
Sorry, but that is one of the most comincal things I've read on here for a while.
That it is designed to be in agreement with a statement accusing people of not having a clue, just makes it better.
That is exactly what I am saying about people hearing that the position is a 'simple' one and therefore taking it far, far too literally and to extremes.
Show me a top class holding midfielder who doesn't pass forward, or even one who rarely passes forward and I will show you an alien from the planet fogpaibgipab.
coulsonblue
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 1 Mar 2007
- Messages
- 1,519
JohnMaddocksAxe said:100% Correct. He isn't supposed to make forward passes.
Sorry, but that is one of the most comincal things I've read on here for a while.
That it is designed to be in agreement with a statement accusing people of not having a clue, just makes it better.
That is exactly what I am saying about people hearing that the position is a 'simple' one and therefore taking it far, far too literally and to extremes.
Show me a top class holding midfielder who doesn't pass forward, or even one who rarely passes forward and I will show you an alien from the planet fogpaibgipab.
Sorry, but that is one of the most comincal things I've read on here for a while.
Most of the time Mascherano will pass to gerrard, De jong to ireland, Carrick to Scholes, to the playmaker rather than doing it themselves.
D
D
Deleted member 14625
Guest
BlueMoon93 said:I thought he bossed the midfield tonight against us. His performance showed that we have a world class midfielder in the making there. Sat in front of their back four and soaked up a good amount of England's pressure and passed the ball about brilliantly. I'd say only Essien and Yaya Toure could do a better job than him in the same role in world football. The fella is gonna be huge for us this season and instrumental in our hopefully successful future.
Totally agree with that fella, last night he was awsome! Ive said all along that his style and ability is awsome and ive been really impressed with him since he arrived! Remember he was injured when we bought him and spent a fair few months trying to get himself fit, but still played well! He also has said very good things in the media about him being a "training animal" and he always wants to be the fittest in any squad! Plus the dig at United before the last derby when he said when he see's the streets of Manchester he see's more blue shirts than red - great guy!
Apart from his dodgy 'tash, im loving that guy!
JohnMaddocksAxe said:I'll give you a controversial opinion about De Jong.
Over the past ten years the 'holding' midfielder has gone from being a clogger with no skill to an important position in a lot of teams.
As it has got more and more coverage and players playing there have got more and more praise, every man and has dog has suddenly jumped on the bandwagon.
You have now got people who see or hear that a player is playing that role and, because they have heard that the way to play the role is 'simple' in manner, they are willing to crack one offf, as someone above puts it, as distinctly average displays in that role.
The most celebrated person in that role over the past few years was Makelele and, despite the reputation of doing nothing but tackle and pass it 3 yards, he was actually very good at spotting a forward pass (not the Beckham esque hoof, but the intricate, break building slide pass forward to another midfielder in the main) and was hugely influencial in attack (by starting them flowing) and obviously defence. He also, due to his ability on the ball, had a huge influence over the tempo of the game and ensuring that Chelsea probed with possession and moved the ball quickly around the pitch to probe different areas.
Hammann, when he was outstanding under Sven for 8 months, played the same role. If anything his strength was even more exagerated when it came to dictating the tempo of the game and using the ball with huge intelligence to set up attacks, punish opposition midfielders when they were out of position with clever balls exploiting it and retaining possession in ridiculously tight situations. Obviously his chasing skills weren't up to the likes of Makelele though.
Mascherano, Hargreaves and others all have a huge influence over the game from that position too.
Now, De Jong, for my money, either whilst he has been here or last night, has nowhere near the amount of influence on a game that any of the above have.
I hear people banging on about how he put some tackles in in a game or how he ran a midfield but for me it's just doing the basics, albeit maybe well, of the role and people wetting themselves because they have this idea in their mind that the role is so simple that playing it well involves only making a few eye catching tackles and playing a very easy pass.
It doesn't. The above all do so much more than that. Another thing that Hammann did so well was read the game and, despite being slower than Richard Jobson, be in the right place to kill an attack time and again. Last season, despite playing an unheard of TWO holding midfielders, the team was broken on through midfield time and time again, with neither Kompany or De Jong consistently stiffling teams with any sort of regularity.
De Jong's use of the ball so far in his City career pales into insignificance compared to others that play the role. The five yard, non challenging, no threatening pass is not the staple of the position. It's just one of many options the player should use, and the least offensive one. For me De Jong has not shown the willingness to play football that gets attacks moving when he wins the ball. His range and ambition of passing, and again, I'm not talking about the glory 50 yarder) has been nowhere some othersn who play in that position and without that speed of thought and forward passing you can't be playing the role at a class level imo.
He also has shown nothing like the ability and influence that Hammann showed in the same role, with Hammann's reading of the play, influence on the game and intelligent use of the ball being far superior.
The above might sound like an attack on De Jong. It's not. I suppose if anything it's an 'attack' (if you want to see it as an attack on anyoen) on people who I feel have heard that the position is simple and therefore are too willing to lavish praise on very simple things.
I actually expect him to be far better this season and have faith in him to develop into a top player in that position in this league. But there is no way I am having that he has done it yet. He has done the very bare minimum in that role whilst here.
Yes, he has run around a lot, he has put some eye catching tackles in. But his reading of the game, stiffling of opposition (especially as there were two of them supposed to be doing it last season) and use of the ball has been nothing more than average.
If anyone wants to tell me that De Jong is having anywhere near as much influence on City games at present as Hammann was 20 months ago then I will be astonished.
De Jong is a better player than he has shown imo. But he needs to show it.
probably the best post i ever read on here.
if anybody thinks that mascherano simply just passes to gerrard, or carrick just passes to scholes, and neither pass forward they clearly dont watch/understand football...
whilst de jong is very effective off the ball, that is just one aspect and there is much more to being a defensive midfielder, or a TOP defensive midfielder and this is what seperates your zokora's from your makalele's...
MCFC-alan88
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 2 Sep 2008
- Messages
- 9,618
JohnMaddocksAxe said:100% Correct. He isn't supposed to make forward passes.
Sorry, but that is one of the most comincal things I've read on here for a while.
That it is designed to be in agreement with a statement accusing people of not having a clue, just makes it better.
That is exactly what I am saying about people hearing that the position is a 'simple' one and therefore taking it far, far too literally and to extremes.
Show me a top class holding midfielder who doesn't pass forward, or even one who rarely passes forward and I will show you an alien from the planet fogpaibgipab.
I agree with you JMA, with City his attacking influence has been limited, I don't know whether that is down to the manager telling him to just focus on stopping anything and everything or the options weren't available at the time.
What I did notice last night was that De Jong seemed to have more freedom in the midfield and on numerous occasions did manage to move the Dutch team forward and made some good attacking passes, like you state, we don't expect 50 yard stunners, but he did make some telling contributions to the dutch attacks last night, I just hope he can add that to his game whilst playing for us.