NDJ Holland

[Wheelsy]

My opinion - albeit controversial, people who think De Jong is shit dont understand the tactical side of football.

He is outstanding at the job he does. Just having him there stopped a lot of the hoofing up front from our defenders. He's one of those unsung hero kind of players, similar to Kevin Horlock. He just comes in, does his job and does it well. He will never do anything spectacular; Ireland, Tevez, Robbie etc are there for that. He's the sort of player who's value you question until you really look closely at his game.

He's always available, his movement allows Ireland to drop deep and receive the ball, he dictates play and breaks things up. With the added help of Barry, that middle three will rival any in the league.

Pretty true.

I also like the way he slots into the backline when Richards or Bridge go on an impossible expedition up the pitch.

 

[JohnMaddocksAxe]

In defence of De Jong, his ability to do something other than pass a simple ball backwards will have been impared last season by the fact that he usually had Kompany alongside him and both had been instructed to rarely cross the half way line.

When you have 3 forwards and Ireland as virtually your only options going forward (maybe two full backs whose attacking ability is average at best too) then you are going to suffer.

Makelele, Hargreaves, Carrick (if you count him), Hammann, Mascherano - all of them played in a similar system but none of them with someone else who is doing the exact job as them. They therefore had more options, especially for 5 - 20 yard short forward passes in midfield as they would almost always have two central midfielders in front of them, instead of just Ireland as De Jong had.

The two holding midfielders formation is a nightmare for everyone without Brazil esque fullbacks, including the holding midfielders themselves.

 

[Deleted member 14625]

My opinion - albeit controversial, people who think De Jong is shit dont understand the tactical side of football.

100% Correct. He isn't supposed to make forward passes.

Chelsea - Makelele, Essien
Liverpool - Hamann, Mascherano
Arsenal - Vieira, Gilberto, Flamini
United - Keane, Carrick

They all have them. It's what every team needs.

More examples:
Spain - Senna
Italy - Gattuso, Pirlo
Brasil - Gilberto

More examples Lothar Matthaus for Germany and Bayern- German lg, cup, Champs Lg and World Cup winner! Didier Deschamps for France and a number of clubs, various domestic lg, cup wins and 2 Champions lg wins with Juve and a World Cup and Euro Champs win with Fance! This position is by no means a new role in any team, people could go back further than what i have but im only 27 and cant recall any further back that the early 90's really!

De Jong does something that far far far too many of world footballers dont do, even top players like Robinho and Ireland in City's team, and that's not giving the ball away! De Jong doesnt just give the simple pass sideways or backwards, he gives the right pass at the right time in whichever direction that maybe so that his team keep the ball! Last night he played through Van Persie and Van der Vaart a number of times from defence into midfield! and this season, as opposed to last, for City he will have a link up man in Barry who will provide a much more central midfield competence than Kompany did as he was just another defensive midfielder!

 

[blueblood007]

Guys am 100% behind NDJ he will be amazing this year trust me, he was a class act for hamburg when i watched him on tv. Also when I went over there to watch city last year, me and my dad got talking to a few of the locals and they where saying he is 10x what VK is (I still love him).
I really do belive he will be one of our best payers, you may not think it at the end of the season but when you look back at all his stats he will have like 90%pass rate and little things like that go a long way.

Last night he was very good,kept lampard very quite, think lamps got past him once with that shot but apart from that nothing,also thought NDJ was trying moe forward passes which was good as its changes his style a little bit.but he played well.

bring on the new season come onnn cityyyy

 

[Tony - MCFC]

my fave player for City at moment, think hes going to be our most important player this season.

 

[hmmm23]

100% Correct. He isn't supposed to make forward passes.

Chelsea - Makelele, Essien
Liverpool - Hamann, Mascherano
Arsenal - Vieira, Gilberto, Flamini
United - Keane, Carrick

They all have them. It's what every team needs.

More examples:
Spain - Senna
Italy - Gattuso, Pirlo
Brasil - Gilberto

More examples Lothar Matthaus for Germany and Bayern- German lg, cup, Champs Lg and World Cup winner! Didier Deschamps for France and a number of clubs, various domestic lg, cup wins and 2 Champions lg wins with Juve and a World Cup and Euro Champs win with Fance! This position is by no means a new role in any team, people could go back further than what i have but im only 27 and cant recall any further back that the early 90's really!

De Jong does something that far far far too many of world footballers dont do, even top players like Robinho and Ireland in City's team, and that's not giving the ball away! De Jong doesnt just give the simple pass sideways or backwards, he gives the right pass at the right time in whichever direction that maybe so that his team keep the ball! Last night he played through Van Persie and Van der Vaart a number of times from defence into midfield! and this season, as opposed to last, for City he will have a link up man in Barry who will provide a much more central midfield competence than Kompany did as he was just another defensive midfielder!

i cant believe that between the two of you, you are suggesting that LOTHAR MATTHAUS, DIDIER DESCHAMPS, ANDREA PIRLO, MICHEAL CARRICK, JAVIER MASCHERANO, PATRICK VIEIRA AND DIDI HAMMAN are 'not supposed to pass forward'

the fact you have even mentioned pirlo here shows a huge lack of understanding, he is a deep lying play maker more than a defensive midfielder, it is his job to play forward, at least with the others it is just part of their jobs...

 

[Blue Train]

I'll give you a controversial opinion about De Jong.

Over the past ten years the 'holding' midfielder has gone from being a clogger with no skill to an important position in a lot of teams.

As it has got more and more coverage and players playing there have got more and more praise, every man and has dog has suddenly jumped on the bandwagon.

You have now got people who see or hear that a player is playing that role and, because they have heard that the way to play the role is 'simple' in manner, they are willing to crack one offf, as someone above puts it, as distinctly average displays in that role.

The most celebrated person in that role over the past few years was Makelele and, despite the reputation of doing nothing but tackle and pass it 3 yards, he was actually very good at spotting a forward pass (not the Beckham esque hoof, but the intricate, break building slide pass forward to another midfielder in the main) and was hugely influencial in attack (by starting them flowing) and obviously defence. He also, due to his ability on the ball, had a huge influence over the tempo of the game and ensuring that Chelsea probed with possession and moved the ball quickly around the pitch to probe different areas.

Hammann, when he was outstanding under Sven for 8 months, played the same role. If anything his strength was even more exagerated when it came to dictating the tempo of the game and using the ball with huge intelligence to set up attacks, punish opposition midfielders when they were out of position with clever balls exploiting it and retaining possession in ridiculously tight situations. Obviously his chasing skills weren't up to the likes of Makelele though.

Mascherano, Hargreaves and others all have a huge influence over the game from that position too.

Now, De Jong, for my money, either whilst he has been here or last night, has nowhere near the amount of influence on a game that any of the above have.

I hear people banging on about how he put some tackles in in a game or how he ran a midfield but for me it's just doing the basics, albeit maybe well, of the role and people wetting themselves because they have this idea in their mind that the role is so simple that playing it well involves only making a few eye catching tackles and playing a very easy pass.

It doesn't. The above all do so much more than that. Another thing that Hammann did so well was read the game and, despite being slower than Richard Jobson, be in the right place to kill an attack time and again. Last season, despite playing an unheard of TWO holding midfielders, the team was broken on through midfield time and time again, with neither Kompany or De Jong consistently stiffling teams with any sort of regularity.

De Jong's use of the ball so far in his City career pales into insignificance compared to others that play the role. The five yard, non challenging, no threatening pass is not the staple of the position. It's just one of many options the player should use, and the least offensive one. For me De Jong has not shown the willingness to play football that gets attacks moving when he wins the ball. His range and ambition of passing, and again, I'm not talking about the glory 50 yarder) has been nowhere some othersn who play in that position and without that speed of thought and forward passing you can't be playing the role at a class level imo.

He also has shown nothing like the ability and influence that Hammann showed in the same role, with Hammann's reading of the play, influence on the game and intelligent use of the ball being far superior.

The above might sound like an attack on De Jong. It's not. I suppose if anything it's an 'attack' (if you want to see it as an attack on anyoen) on people who I feel have heard that the position is simple and therefore are too willing to lavish praise on very simple things.

I actually expect him to be far better this season and have faith in him to develop into a top player in that position in this league. But there is no way I am having that he has done it yet. He has done the very bare minimum in that role whilst here.

Yes, he has run around a lot, he has put some eye catching tackles in. But his reading of the game, stiffling of opposition (especially as there were two of them supposed to be doing it last season) and use of the ball has been nothing more than average.

If anyone wants to tell me that De Jong is having anywhere near as much influence on City games at present as Hammann was 20 months ago then I will be astonished.

De Jong is a better player than he has shown imo. But he needs to show it.

Excellent analysis. I'm fed up of people calling him some sort of world beater who dominates midfield and strikes fear into the heart of opponents when I've never seen evidence of it in a City shirt. Not once. Now this may be due to Hughes putting Kompany alongside him and messing up the very nature of what his role is supposed to be - it may not. But has everyone forgotten how many times teams tore us apart last season? And how he got bullied out of the derby by those renowned hard knocks Park, Giggs and Carrick?

He is, at the moment, nowhere near as good as others in that role (Makelele, Essien, Mascherano, etc) and needs to take a very big step forwards this season (N.B. Nigel: 'forwards' is that way, towards the opponents' goal).

 

[Deleted member 14625]

More examples Lothar Matthaus for Germany and Bayern- German lg, cup, Champs Lg and World Cup winner! Didier Deschamps for France and a number of clubs, various domestic lg, cup wins and 2 Champions lg wins with Juve and a World Cup and Euro Champs win with Fance! This position is by no means a new role in any team, people could go back further than what i have but im only 27 and cant recall any further back that the early 90's really!

De Jong does something that far far far too many of world footballers dont do, even top players like Robinho and Ireland in City's team, and that's not giving the ball away! De Jong doesnt just give the simple pass sideways or backwards, he gives the right pass at the right time in whichever direction that maybe so that his team keep the ball! Last night he played through Van Persie and Van der Vaart a number of times from defence into midfield! and this season, as opposed to last, for City he will have a link up man in Barry who will provide a much more central midfield competence than Kompany did as he was just another defensive midfielder!

i cant believe that between the two of you, you are suggesting that LOTHAR MATTHAUS, DIDIER DESCHAMPS, ANDREA PIRLO, MICHEAL CARRICK, JAVIER MASCHERANO, PATRICK VIEIRA AND DIDI HAMMAN are 'not supposed to pass forward'

the fact you have even mentioned pirlo here shows a huge lack of understanding, he is a deep lying play maker more than a defensive midfielder, it is his job to play forward, at least with the others it is just part of their jobs...

Ive not said once that any of them are "not supposed to pass forwards", not once - just like De Jong doesnt only pass backwards or sideways! It goes with the quality of the players who play around the player in the defensive midfield position, if the DM has poor players around him or attacking players who are too far away from him or another DM instead of a central midfielder; he will then pass backwards or sideways because his team will at least keep the ball! But if, like last night where Van der Vaart dropped back two yards from the England midfielders on a number of occasions and De Jong passed him the ball FORWARDS and started a Holland period of play in England's half and the fact De Jong will have Barry instead of a more defensive minded Kompany in midfield with him this season then the DM will look a better player! But really its not that the DM is any better than he was when he had non-suitable players around him its that he has better players or more suitable players around him to suit his game!

and i find that you have a lack of understanding that you think it would be better for the DM to pass forwards even if that option is the wrong one, when a sideways or backwards pass may well be the better option! Footy scorelines dont finish 9-5 do they? so that suggests that footy is a game that needs patience and not to make rash decisions for trying to be too positive and get the ball forwards on every opportunity! Thats where De Jong has been brought up to make sure his team keeps the ball at all costs, not matter which way he passes the ball, because eventually the right pass forwards will be on and that he should take it at that right time!

 

[Ntini77]

He's a good player but he's not up there with the best in his position.

He couldn't get a game for Ajax don't forget.

 

[Deleted member 14625]

He's a good player but he's not up there with the best in his position.

He couldn't get a game for Ajax don't forget.

He played for Ajax from when he was 17 to when he was 20!