Negative players or negative tactics...

[m27]

With respect BK - at the root of it all DD or myself are saying is that we have a squad which has for various reasons underperformed all season. People are contradicting that by saying the squad itself isn't that good, or is unbalanced. In both instances or totally disagree.

We're short on a box to box midfield player, and a solid right and left back. But we still have two very very good if not top class players for each position.

The "balanced and cohesive unit" which you talk about will not come from adding or subtracting more players, it will come from the manager knowing his best XI, and using them to the best of their capabilities, on a consistent basis...

I still think that its because the squad is unbalanced that both managers have struggled.

Hughes tried attacking, and we leaked goals, he tried defending and we didn't score enough. Mancini has decided to sort the defence, which he largely has, but without the link in midfield, half the time we end up playing hoof ball (and we did this under MH too) to get it forward.

The current midfield players can't bring the ball forward quickly enough to link play from defence to attack, so we end up with the strikers coming back to get it, and then not being forward if we get it there in the end.

The centre midfield all have qualities, De Jong is a good stopper, Ireland is creatively minded, Barry is cool under pressure, Zabaleta is purely there as back up for me, Vieira was a short term measure which backfired because 1. he was injured, and 2. he got himself a stupid suspension (and 3. he's probably had his day, though like Hamman I still think he can add something to it all). Getting the right midfield is the key, and I don't think we have it, and Mancini knew this from the first day. January is always difficult to bring in the right quality, and I don't think there was much he could do then.

Finding a box to box player that is the standard for where we want to be isn't going to be easy, there aren't many around, and those that are, are wanted by clubs better able (currently) to sign them (and I don't mean financially).

What's a real pity is that we spent so much collecting all these players, and yet we seem no nearer to putting together a team that can compete consistently, and that once again we will rebuild a squad in the summer.

My point about the balance of the squad is this - we have 3 out an out wingers in Petrov, SWP and Johnson but can't play an effective 4 4 2 because we haven't got two central midfielders with the all round ability to play that role (bar Michael Johnson).

That signifies an unbalanced squad in my eyes without even looking at it any deeper.

We've got the quality, but we haven't got the correct blend. It won't take much effort in the transfer market to put that right though.

 

[moomba]

to show we mean business and can go to mid-table teams and boss a game from start to finish.

Very few (if any teams) can dominate for 90 minutes against any side let alone Fulham away.

If we go gung ho, we'll be well beaten.

 

[Anonymous]

When was the last time we played really well for 90 minutes?

People were raving about the win at Chelsea but in the first half we played as if we were waiting for them to score before we made any real attacking moves. Yesterday we were awful in the first half.

We've won two games in eight and I don't see much sign of improvement. We HAVE to go and win at Fulham to show we mean business and can go to mid-table teams and boss a game from start to finish. If we can show a real dominant display then I'll have more faith. But at the moment we look okay on the counter-attack such as at Chelsea where we robbed them in all honesty. In games where teams don't try and pen us in whilst pushing forward in huge numbers like Chelsea did we seem to lack control of the pace of the game.

Players like Barry are renowned for putting a foot on the ball and controlling things. It is time he started to boss things a bit more. I didn't like seeing Zabba in midfield because he's too mad to boss a game. Runs around like a maniac. Ad De Jong is a tackling/interception machine but not much of a ball player.

I concur with most of that sir...

The one thing I will say though, is that whenever we do look to attack teams and pen them in their own half, we look very very dangerous and a very capable side. It goes back to my OP which started this thread....is it the players mentality, or the manager's instructions, which are stopping us from doing this from the first whistle of a match...

 

[robbieh]

LOL @ writing the manager off and his style of football. He's been here, what, less than 3 months?

We've got a new manager who's in a new league with a new squad, so to think that what we've got now is gonna be as good as it gets after such a short space of time is fucking idiotic. It's gonna take time to get things right, but it's already plain to see we're a much more organised outfit. Under Mancini I feel that it's only a matter of time before we really get things right, whereas which is in stark contrast to Hughes' tenure when evry game I felt as though it was gonna fall apart (at spurs it finally did).

This is exactly how I feel/felt. I suppose it is a gut instinct. Just never had confidence Hughes would ever get it right no matter how much he spent.
When he arrived he made it quite clear he didn't rate certain players or indeed any of them. Which probably didn't help results. He was continually asking for time. Work in progress etc etc. Not my team.

In contrast RM has just rolled up his sleeves and got on with it. There are probably plenty of players he doesn't rate but he keeps stum.

This in essence shows me the difference between a manager who has self confidence, and lets be frank he would have with 3 Seria A titles under his belt, and a manager desperate to hang on to his job who had spent a kings ransom replacing players he didn't rate only to end the season lower than Sven did.

 

[m27]

When was the last time we played really well for 90 minutes?

People were raving about the win at Chelsea but in the first half we played as if we were waiting for them to score before we made any real attacking moves. Yesterday we were awful in the first half.

We've won two games in eight and I don't see much sign of improvement. We HAVE to go and win at Fulham to show we mean business and can go to mid-table teams and boss a game from start to finish. If we can show a real dominant display then I'll have more faith. But at the moment we look okay on the counter-attack such as at Chelsea where we robbed them in all honesty. In games where teams don't try and pen us in whilst pushing forward in huge numbers like Chelsea did we seem to lack control of the pace of the game.

Players like Barry are renowned for putting a foot on the ball and controlling things. It is time he started to boss things a bit more. I didn't like seeing Zabba in midfield because he's too mad to boss a game. Runs around like a maniac. Ad De Jong is a tackling/interception machine but not much of a ball player.

I concur with most of that sir...

The one thing I will say though, is that whenever we do look to attack teams and pen them in their own half, we look very very dangerous and a very capable side. It goes back to my OP which started this thread....is it the players mentality, or the manager's instructions, which are stopping us from doing this from the first whistle of a match...

...or some of the player's lack of technical ability?

Many will disagree but the one thing that Mancini's style of play has highlighted for me is a lack of technical ability in some of our players.

SWP has looked like a dog chasing a balloon most times he's been in possession recently and Mancini's style of football requires full backs to be comfortable on the ball and Richards is many things but comfortable on the ball he is not, but the most painful thing is watching our 'samey' central midfielders play one-twos with their own defenders and fail to pass it forward to feet.

Not sure why he doesn't give Ireland a go because this could sort this out but I just feel Mancini's going to make things click at the right time. I'm no tubthumper and people can throw this in my face at the end of the season if we finish outside of the Top 4, but I've just got an inkling all will end well.<br /><br />-- Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:59 pm --<br /><br />

LOL @ writing the manager off and his style of football. He's been here, what, less than 3 months?

We've got a new manager who's in a new league with a new squad, so to think that what we've got now is gonna be as good as it gets after such a short space of time is fucking idiotic. It's gonna take time to get things right, but it's already plain to see we're a much more organised outfit. Under Mancini I feel that it's only a matter of time before we really get things right, whereas which is in stark contrast to Hughes' tenure when evry game I felt as though it was gonna fall apart (at spurs it finally did).

This is exactly how I feel/felt. I suppose it is a gut instinct. Just never had confidence Hughes would ever get it right no matter how much he spent.
When he arrived he made it quite clear he didn't rate certain players or indeed any of them. Which probably didn't help results. He was continually asking for time. Work in progress etc etc. Not my team.

In contrast RM has just rolled up his sleeves and got on with it. There are probably plenty of players he doesn't rate but he keeps stum.

This in essence shows me the difference between a manager who has self confidence, and lets be frank he would have with 3 Seria A titles under his belt, and a manager desperate to hang on to his job who had spent a kings ransom replacing players he didn't rate only to end the season lower than Sven did.

Same with me mate.

Mancini frustrated the hell out of me at the start but I've grown to appreciate that the be all and end all is the result and how we get there I don't care any more.

A point wasn't exactly 'a result' yesterday I know but on another day that 2nd half performance would have earned us a comfortable 3 points.

 

[simon23]

I don't think anyone thinks it's acceptable to go one down or to continually play the first half the way we did.

But I don't think a change in formation would have made us pass better, or make less dumb mistakes, or stop individuals from playing poorly. A more attacking formation wouldn't have guaranteed we wouldn't have gone in 1 or more down at half time, in fact the way individuals were performing I would have thought conceding one or more would have been most likely with a less defensive formation.

Where he fucked up on the day IMO, is taking too long to replace SWP.

I hear what you're saying 100% Moomba and I don't necessarily disagree with much of it, but my gripe is a much broader one.

From what I can see with my own eyes, we are taking exactly the same approach, home or away, whoever the opposition. The buzzwords are "safety first", "defensive organization", "team shape", "hold your position". There's a lack of fluidity, a lack of desire on management's part to go out and beat inferior opposition by playing them off the park.

I fully understand that defensive organization was our biggest weakness under MH, so I can see why these things are important. But it shouldn't be one or the other.

spot on billyshears! we shoudltn be setting out to be negative (or for want of a better way of putting it...... not positive) but mancinis team selections and formations are exactly that week after week regardless of oppostion.

we are playing fulham nxt and they play football on the ground (unlike stoke and sunderland)...so lets see if he changes his way of playing...i fear he wont<br /><br />-- Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:21 pm --<br /><br />

Some decent positive thinking there m27.

However, look at it another way.

I've got no stats to back this up but since Mancini's come, every time we have gone a goal behind and have pushed to try to win a game/get back on top, we have started to quickly dominate.

That's because attacking is what we do best.

Now we've got a settled back 4 we don't need to be going into games like yesterday's defending on the edge of our own box. We had no outlet except the long ball to Tevez which came straight back at us.

We should have started the game like we played in the second half. There have been countless other games where this has happened.

fully agreed

I have no problem with mancini but i just dont nderstand why he doesnt play to our strengths which is attacking football played at pace and with fluidity

under MH we needed to be more solid defensively and mancini has done a great job at sorting that out but he has shifted the balance so far towards defending that we have lost our impetus to attack...we only do it now when we fall behind....we should be playing like that from the start

 

[leewill31]

to put it simply we do not have the midfield in which to change anything around in any one game.

we seemed to have nailed the defence and the forwards are working again with tevez back in the team its just the midfield that is lacking now!

 

[adammck]

I like to remain rather positive about City but here are my two cents.

Are we honestly a top 4 club? I don't think we are. Don't get my wrong i think we are very close but there is a worrying trend. All our players have turned up for the big matches and generally we have got a good result (home or away). When we go off to easier fixtures it's as if the players don't exactly turn up 100% like they would the top team. When we are in trouble we sometimes impode and panic. The other top sides would be patient and grind out a result.

I do think we could sneak that 4th place spot as Spurs, Villa and Liverpool are showing very similar form at the time being. I'm not sure what the problem is but here is a few things i think what might be?

Money - more money equals more problems. I know these guys are professionals but there seems to be a devide in what the 'new' players are getting and what the 'older' players are on. This is highlighted in SWP contract talks. I know that these guys are professionals and all but if you were at work doing the same job and the guy next to you was on alot more wouldnt you feel abit hard done by?

Youth - besides the introduction of Adam Johnson into the first team there hasnt really been any good enough new additions from the acadamy or into the first team. The young lads that just wont to prove themselves and are fearless of the task. At the moment it's really only AJ that's in that position and look at the difference he has made at the moment. Do we need some gifted lads to come through the acadamy to give the team more balance?

The Creative Midfielder - Since Irelands been out of form we have really been left without much options. Imagine just a world class creative midfielder in the middle pulling the strings to Bellers, Johnson and Tevez. I think we would be a completely different side and it would take a heap of prssure of the defenders (even tho we play with so many DM's now, attack is the best form of defence in my book).

Time - All we need is time. Everything is going to come our way in the future. So it may not happen on the weekend or next year. With all the investment the owners are making on the field, off the feild and whatever else we will be sitting pretty in no time.

Anyways rant over.

 

[simon23]

one thing that game did show on a positve note though is our ability to keep going as a team

over the last decade and a half how many times have utd especially come back with a last minute goal to save a game (or even win a game).....it seems that we have now developed that ability and that is definately a positive thing to have

 

[m27]

one thing that game did show on a positve note though is our ability to keep going as a team

over the last decade and a half how many times have utd especially come back with a last minute goal to save a game (or even win a game).....it seems that we have now developed that ability and that is definately a positive thing to have

It also showed we have a man in charge who can admit it when he's got things wrong and has the ability to change the course of the game during the 90 minutes.

"Well he should have got it right in the first instance"....and you might be right, but a lot of other managers would have just stubbornly gone about their business hoping to be proved right during the 90 minutes.

Under Hughes, if we started shit, we finished shit. That's not always the case under Mancini. It's clearly not perfect or he wouldn't have to change it but I'm seeing enough positives and improvements to put my confidence in him.