New UEFA coefficient rules are BS

[simonmdm]

Looking at our coefficient points as it stands we are still 3 seasons (including this season) away from making it into pot 1. It also means that despite people thinking the Europa league is a waste of time, we need to try and get 3rd place in the group if we can't get 1st or 2nd to improve this seasons coefficient points otherwise we'll be stuck in pot 2/3 for ever.

But then like somebody said in an earlier post, Napoli managed to qualify last season and Brussia Dortmund are doing a good job so far and they were both in pot 4. It's an example of us needing to do our talking on the pitch instead of worrying about what pot we're in.

 

[scottchorlton]

Just like all sports. McIlroy's bird has never won a major, yet she was world no.1 for over a year in women's tennis because she gained ranking points over a sustained period. We've played nine Champions League matches. That's fewer than CFR Cluj or Bate Borisov.

You are completely discrediting domestic league performance. The historical roots of the CL/European Cup lay in domestic performance, the competition was established to reward the CHAMPIONS of domestic competition. We're not getting that reward, we're getting chump status and a chump seeding despite being the Champions of our domestic league (arguably the finest league in the world at that).

That's really weak. You want a reward for winning the league? Well qualifying for the CL is your reward. Seeding has nothing to do with rewards. It is something you earn by getting points in CL or EL.

What if a team from a lower league performs well in europe? They will never get a seeded status according to your logic.

^^^this^^

Some people need to be more realistic about what we deserve!

Yes we won one of the toughest leagues in the world....reward?? Champions League qualification.

Why should we be seeded higher in the competition when we have not historically performed in it. You can be damn sure if it was the rags in our position and they wanted a higher ranking for winning the league, the same people on here would be ridiculing them.

What we need to do is either qualify for the Europa and progress ad possibly win it, or drop out and concentrate on the league to gain qualification again and try harder next year!

There is no conspiracy, there is no flaw in the system, we are simply not performing good enough!! Accept and move on, only way we can improve the system is to improve ourselves

 

[JGL07]

Will our faliure to get out of the group. Stages again effect the premier league's four places for next season could we only get three spots....

Err no.

It has already been decided for next season on the basis of the results from last year. England are in second place behind Spain and are way ahead of Italy, France, and Portugal in fourth, fifth and sixth place. So things will not change for 2013-14 and probably not for 2014-15.

 

[Cobwebcat]

You are completely discrediting domestic league performance. The historical roots of the CL/European Cup lay in domestic performance, the competition was established to reward the CHAMPIONS of domestic competition. We're not getting that reward, we're getting chump status and a chump seeding despite being the Champions of our domestic league (arguably the finest league in the world at that).

That's really weak. You want a reward for winning the league? Well qualifying for the CL is your reward. Seeding has nothing to do with rewards. It is something you earn by getting points in CL or EL.

What if a team from a lower league performs well in europe? They will never get a seeded status according to your logic.

^^^this^^

Some people need to be more realistic about what we deserve!

Yes we won one of the toughest leagues in the world....reward?? Champions League qualification.

Why should we be seeded higher in the competition when we have not historically performed in it. You can be damn sure if it was the rags in our position and they wanted a higher ranking for winning the league, the same people on here would be ridiculing them.

What we need to do is either qualify for the Europa and progress ad possibly win it, or drop out and concentrate on the league to gain qualification again and try harder next year!

There is no conspiracy, there is no flaw in the system, we are simply not performing good enough!! Accept and move on, only way we can improve the system is to improve ourselves

Largely true in the main. However there is a flaw as there is no denying that UEFA's seeding system is politically motivated and, as a result, we have been unlucky with the draw. This is not an excuse for a poor performance but it is nevertheless a fact.

Anyone that thinks Dortmund are a pot 4 side (given current strength) are deluded. Dortmund do not have a good record in Europe over the last 5 years which is why they are in Pot 4 but that in no way reflects their current strength. A couple of bad results and you can be out of Europe very quickly and lose the opportunity to earn ranking points while weaker sides rack the points up playing each other.

UEFA ignore domestic results as a result of the weaker nations complaining that it should be solely European results that count. OK fair enough but then you have to accept that you could get the Champions of Spain England Germany and Holland in one group while Group H features such powehouses as Cluj and Braga.

If we accept the flawed seeding system as "just the way it is" that's fine but there is no doubt that you can get unlucky because of it, and we have TWICE!

It's like Wimbledon only counting results at the previous Wimbledon and so if Nadal got knocked out early the previous year he then draws Murray in round one the following year. That would be stupid yes? At least there is an argument that the system is a little strange.

The rules are what they are (accepted) but to disregard completely how a daft seeding system, that has no mathematical basis in ranking the top teams at the top, operates is also silly.

If UEFA used current overall strength of teams (as almost all sports do) Real Madrid, City and Dortmund would be in pot 1 and Ajax would be in pot 3 making our group impossible. http://clubelo.com/All/Ranking.html

If you are going to have a seeding system (and I can see the sense myself though I know many would like a return to a straight knock-out) then it shouldn't be as a result of a political agreement but rather based on objective mathematics.

We will get there in the end but until we do it will be harder than it reasonably should be and this is a fator in how soon we go out in the meantime.

As Joe Hart correctly spotted "Dortmund are never a pot 4 team"

 

[levets]

The German champions 2 seasons running are only in pot 4. There is definitely something wrong with this system.

Where as Villarreal were in pot 2 least year and got relegated from La Liga.

But then I don't think Real Madrid would have been too happy when the group was announced...

And ARSENAL despite not winning anything for 8 years... remain in pot 1

 

[Latics Fan SJK]

That's really weak. You want a reward for winning the league? Well qualifying for the CL is your reward. Seeding has nothing to do with rewards. It is something you earn by getting points in CL or EL.

What if a team from a lower league performs well in europe? They will never get a seeded status according to your logic.

^^^this^^

Some people need to be more realistic about what we deserve!

Yes we won one of the toughest leagues in the world....reward?? Champions League qualification.

Why should we be seeded higher in the competition when we have not historically performed in it. You can be damn sure if it was the rags in our position and they wanted a higher ranking for winning the league, the same people on here would be ridiculing them.

What we need to do is either qualify for the Europa and progress ad possibly win it, or drop out and concentrate on the league to gain qualification again and try harder next year!

There is no conspiracy, there is no flaw in the system, we are simply not performing good enough!! Accept and move on, only way we can improve the system is to improve ourselves

Largely true in the main. However there is a flaw as there is no denying that UEFA's seeding system is politically motivated and, as a result, we have been unlucky with the draw. This is not an excuse for a poor performance but it is nevertheless a fact.

Anyone that thinks Dortmund are a pot 4 side (given current strength) are deluded. Dortmund do not have a good record in Europe over the last 5 years which is why they are in Pot 4 but that in no way reflects their current strength. A couple of bad results and you can be out of Europe very quickly and lose the opportunity to earn ranking points while weaker sides rack the points up playing each other.

UEFA ignore domestic results as a result of the weaker nations complaining that it should be solely European results that count. OK fair enough but then you have to accept that you could get the Champions of Spain England Germany and Holland in one group while Group H features such powehouses as Cluj and Braga.

If we accept the flawed seeding system as "just the way it is" that's fine but there is no doubt that you can get unlucky because of it, and we have TWICE!

It's like Wimbledon only counting results at the previous Wimbledon and so if Nadal got knocked out early the previous year he then draws Murray in round one the following year. That would be stupid yes? At least there is an argument that the system is a little strange.

The rules are what they are (accepted) but to disregard completely how a daft seeding system, that has no mathematical basis in ranking the top teams at the top, operates is also silly.

If UEFA used current overall strength of teams (as almost all sports do) Real Madrid, City and Dortmund would be in pot 1 and Ajax would be in pot 3 making our group impossible. http://clubelo.com/All/Ranking.html

If you are going to have a seeding system (and I can see the sense myself though I know many would like a return to a straight knock-out) then it shouldn't be as a result of a political agreement but rather based on objective mathematics.

We will get there in the end but until we do it will be harder than it reasonably should be and this is a fator in how soon we go out in the meantime.

As Joe Hart correctly spotted "Dortmund are never a pot 4 team"

I think Hart meant that is an they are better than any of the other pot 4 teams. I don't think he was having a dig, as such, at the seeding system.

Whilst I can imagine it to be tough to deal with the fact that the group stages in the first few years has the potential to be difficult, the CL is a competition where you have to beat the best to be the best.

It's OK saying you can have a couple of bad results and then you're out but at the end of the day, that's what makes the competition as tough as it is.

In the two CL campaigns you have had so far, you've beaten Villarreal (twice) who are now in the Segunda and an under strength Bayern Munich. So 3 wins out of 9 games when, in reality, you should be taking 3 (at least), maybe 4 from Napoli H&A and 6pts from Ajax H&A.

Why should City (and this doesn't just apply to City either) be rewarded with, not only a place in the CL, but a much kinder draw? You have to earn your place in the competition to start with and then earn your right to belong there.

It's no good wanting an easier draw so you can get to the 2nd round when you're struggling to beat the teams in the group stages, that you would likely meet in the 2nd round anyway?

Let's be honest here (putting all potential 'the draw is rigged' bollocks aside), if the groups would have been this...

Man Utd
Shakhtar
Borussia Dortmund
Juventus

Real Madrid
Man City
Galatasaray
Cluj

....then there wouldn't be much complaining then and these groups could well have gone that way pre-draw. As it happens, it didn't work out like that but there's no reason it couldn't next year.

 

[adorado30]

As far as I can tell all these rules are designed to do is to ensure that the old guard (the Real Madrids, Barcelonas, Bayern Munichs, Manchester Uniteds and AC Milans) are ensured knockout qualification.

What kind of f****d up ranking system produces a group which has the actual Champions of 3 of the 4 best football leagues in the world?! It could only have been worse if we'd had the Italian champions as well.

How is a team supposed to improve their coefficient and elevate themselves given such logistics? It looks like we're now all but out of this year's CL at the first hurdle again, no doubt we can look forward to next year's CL draw (Barca, Juventus and Schalke I'm guessing) whilst the rags can easily maintain their coefficient against teams I have honestly never even heard of (Cluj?! wtf?!).

Just stop embarrassing yourself with this BS!
What makes you think that we would progress in other groups ? There is no easy group these days. Bayern lost to Bate Borisov, Chelsea got beat, Real Madrid lost as well.

Why cant you be honest and admit that we were outcoached and most importanly outplayed in the last 2 season in the Champions League and partly in the Europa League

Is it really Uefas fault that we cant hold on to a 2-1 lead in Madrid with 5 minutes left or that we cant beat Ajax ?

Real Madrid could have been easily stuck with 3 points had we beat them and yet you are saying that the rules are designed for big clubs such as Real Madrid to make it to knockout qualification.

 

[Cobwebcat]

^^^this^^

Some people need to be more realistic about what we deserve!

Yes we won one of the toughest leagues in the world....reward?? Champions League qualification.

Why should we be seeded higher in the competition when we have not historically performed in it. You can be damn sure if it was the rags in our position and they wanted a higher ranking for winning the league, the same people on here would be ridiculing them.

What we need to do is either qualify for the Europa and progress ad possibly win it, or drop out and concentrate on the league to gain qualification again and try harder next year!

There is no conspiracy, there is no flaw in the system, we are simply not performing good enough!! Accept and move on, only way we can improve the system is to improve ourselves

Largely true in the main. However there is a flaw as there is no denying that UEFA's seeding system is politically motivated and, as a result, we have been unlucky with the draw. This is not an excuse for a poor performance but it is nevertheless a fact.

Anyone that thinks Dortmund are a pot 4 side (given current strength) are deluded. Dortmund do not have a good record in Europe over the last 5 years which is why they are in Pot 4 but that in no way reflects their current strength. A couple of bad results and you can be out of Europe very quickly and lose the opportunity to earn ranking points while weaker sides rack the points up playing each other.

UEFA ignore domestic results as a result of the weaker nations complaining that it should be solely European results that count. OK fair enough but then you have to accept that you could get the Champions of Spain England Germany and Holland in one group while Group H features such powehouses as Cluj and Braga.

If we accept the flawed seeding system as "just the way it is" that's fine but there is no doubt that you can get unlucky because of it, and we have TWICE!

It's like Wimbledon only counting results at the previous Wimbledon and so if Nadal got knocked out early the previous year he then draws Murray in round one the following year. That would be stupid yes? At least there is an argument that the system is a little strange.

The rules are what they are (accepted) but to disregard completely how a daft seeding system, that has no mathematical basis in ranking the top teams at the top, operates is also silly.

If UEFA used current overall strength of teams (as almost all sports do) Real Madrid, City and Dortmund would be in pot 1 and Ajax would be in pot 3 making our group impossible. http://clubelo.com/All/Ranking.html

If you are going to have a seeding system (and I can see the sense myself though I know many would like a return to a straight knock-out) then it shouldn't be as a result of a political agreement but rather based on objective mathematics.

We will get there in the end but until we do it will be harder than it reasonably should be and this is a fator in how soon we go out in the meantime.

As Joe Hart correctly spotted "Dortmund are never a pot 4 team"

I think Hart meant that is an they are better than any of the other pot 4 teams. I don't think he was having a dig, as such, at the seeding system.

Whilst I can imagine it to be tough to deal with the fact that the group stages in the first few years has the potential to be difficult, the CL is a competition where you have to beat the best to be the best.

It's OK saying you can have a couple of bad results and then you're out but at the end of the day, that's what makes the competition as tough as it is.

In the two CL campaigns you have had so far, you've beaten Villarreal (twice) who are now in the Segunda and an under strength Bayern Munich. So 3 wins out of 9 games when, in reality, you should be taking 3 (at least), maybe 4 from Napoli H&A and 6pts from Ajax H&A.

Why should City (and this doesn't just apply to City either) be rewarded with, not only a place in the CL, but a much kinder draw? You have to earn your place in the competition to start with and then earn your right to belong there.

It's no good wanting an easier draw so you can get to the 2nd round when you're struggling to beat the teams in the group stages, that you would likely meet in the 2nd round anyway?

Let's be honest here (putting all potential 'the draw is rigged' bollocks aside), if the groups would have been this...

Man Utd
Shakhtar
Borussia Dortmund
Juventus

Real Madrid
Man City
Galatasaray
Cluj

....then there wouldn't be much complaining then and these groups could well have gone that way pre-draw. As it happens, it didn't work out like that but there's no reason it couldn't next year.

This is just the same point already answered. If you accept that the seeding should be solely on the results in Europe and over a 5 year period then yes there is nothing to complain about as we haven't "earned" an easier group.

I don't agree with the method so, to me, it's unfair whether it costs City or any team for that matter.

 

[Cobwebcat]

As far as I can tell all these rules are designed to do is to ensure that the old guard (the Real Madrids, Barcelonas, Bayern Munichs, Manchester Uniteds and AC Milans) are ensured knockout qualification.

What kind of f****d up ranking system produces a group which has the actual Champions of 3 of the 4 best football leagues in the world?! It could only have been worse if we'd had the Italian champions as well.

How is a team supposed to improve their coefficient and elevate themselves given such logistics? It looks like we're now all but out of this year's CL at the first hurdle again, no doubt we can look forward to next year's CL draw (Barca, Juventus and Schalke I'm guessing) whilst the rags can easily maintain their coefficient against teams I have honestly never even heard of (Cluj?! wtf?!).

Just stop embarrassing yourself with this BS!
What makes you think that we would progress in other groups ? There is no easy group these days. Bayern lost to Bate Borisov, Chelsea got beat, Real Madrid lost as well.

Why cant you be honest and admit that we were outcoached and most importanly outplayed in the last 2 season in the Champions League and partly in the Europa League

Is it really Uefas fault that we cant hold on to a 2-1 lead in Madrid with 5 minutes left or that we cant beat Ajax ?

Real Madrid could have been easily stuck with 3 points had we beat them and yet you are saying that the rules are designed for big clubs such as Real Madrid to make it to knockout qualification.[/quote]

They are. It doesn't mean they will and the help cant last forever but it can last for a rolling 5 years.

 

[adorado30]

As far as I can tell all these rules are designed to do is to ensure that the old guard (the Real Madrids, Barcelonas, Bayern Munichs, Manchester Uniteds and AC Milans) are ensured knockout qualification.

What kind of f****d up ranking system produces a group which has the actual Champions of 3 of the 4 best football leagues in the world?! It could only have been worse if we'd had the Italian champions as well.

How is a team supposed to improve their coefficient and elevate themselves given such logistics? It looks like we're now all but out of this year's CL at the first hurdle again, no doubt we can look forward to next year's CL draw (Barca, Juventus and Schalke I'm guessing) whilst the rags can easily maintain their coefficient against teams I have honestly never even heard of (Cluj?! wtf?!).

Just stop embarrassing yourself with this BS!
What makes you think that we would progress in other groups ? There is no easy group these days. Bayern lost to Bate Borisov, Chelsea got beat, Real Madrid lost as well.

Why cant you be honest and admit that we were outcoached and most importanly outplayed in the last 2 season in the Champions League and partly in the Europa League

Is it really Uefas fault that we cant hold on to a 2-1 lead in Madrid with 5 minutes left or that we cant beat Ajax ?

Real Madrid could have been easily stuck with 3 points had we beat them and yet you are saying that the rules are designed for big clubs such as Real Madrid to make it to knockout qualification.[/quote]

They are. It doesn't mean they will and the help cant last forever but it can last for a rolling 5 years.

Yes of course, they were just introduced before we made it to the Champions Leauge.

Is it also Uefas fault that we cant beat Ajax or as why we play like shit in the Champions Leauge ?