New UEFA coefficient rules are BS

[Cobwebcat]

Out of curiosity, since Barca didn't win the league or CL last year, what put would you have had them in?

Pot 1. They are the best team in the world:

http://clubelo.com/All/Ranking.html

If you want to know what would have been my precise pots divide this:

http://clubelo.com/UCL/Ranking.html

Into 4 pots (every 8 teams)

So Pot 1 would be:

ESP 1 Barcelona
ESP 2 Real Madrid
GER 3 Bayern
ENG 4 Man United
ENG 5 Man City
GER 6 Dortmund
POR 8 Porto
ENG 9 Chelsea

Atletico are ranked 7th but did not qualify.

Obviously this is a constantly moving ranking so there would have to be a cut-off date where the rankings applied from. As you can see, our group (for all teams) is ridiculously hard and at least 3 of the teams should not meet until the last 8

What does that solve ? You could still get a group of death. PSG, JUVE, Ac Milan, Benfica, Arsenal, Valencia, Malaga would all go into Pot 2.

Pot 3 and Pot4 would me my guess but even in those Pots there are no easy teams these days.

It would stop the extreme situations from happening like:

City's Group has 2nd 5th 6th and 24th (Average position 9)

United's Group has 4th 53rd 97th and 154th ( Average position 77)

 

[adorado30]

Pot 1. They are the best team in the world:

http://clubelo.com/All/Ranking.html

If you want to know what would have been my precise pots divide this:

http://clubelo.com/UCL/Ranking.html

Into 4 pots (every 8 teams)

So Pot 1 would be:

ESP 1 Barcelona
ESP 2 Real Madrid
GER 3 Bayern
ENG 4 Man United
ENG 5 Man City
GER 6 Dortmund
POR 8 Porto
ENG 9 Chelsea

Atletico are ranked 7th but did not qualify.

Obviously this is a constantly moving ranking so there would have to be a cut-off date where the rankings applied from. As you can see, our group (for all teams) is ridiculously hard and at least 3 of the teams should not meet until the last 8

What does that solve ? You could still get a group of death. PSG, JUVE, Ac Milan, Benfica, Arsenal, Valencia, Malaga would all go into Pot 2.

Pot 3 and Pot4 would me my guess but even in those Pots there are no easy teams these days.

It would stop the extreme situations from happening like:

City's Group has 2nd 5th 6th and 24th (Average position 9)

United's Group has 4th 53rd 97th and 154th ( Average position 77)

But we could still get really hard group.

1. City
2.PSG
3. Lille (guess)
4.Nordsjaelland (guess)

Yes, it is an easier group but are you sure we would qualify from such group ? Based on our perfomance in the CL where we cant even beat fuckin all mighty AJAX it's very hard to say we would.

 

[Cobwebcat]

What does that solve ? You could still get a group of death. PSG, JUVE, Ac Milan, Benfica, Arsenal, Valencia, Malaga would all go into Pot 2.

Pot 3 and Pot4 would me my guess but even in those Pots there are no easy teams these days.

It would stop the extreme situations from happening like:

City's Group has 2nd 5th 6th and 24th (Average position 9)

United's Group has 4th 53rd 97th and 154th ( Average position 77)

But we could still get really hard group.

1. City
2.PSG
3. Lille (guess)
4.Nordsjaelland (guess)

Yes, it is an easier group but are you sure we would qualify from such group ? Based on our perfomance in the CL where we cant even beat fuckin all mighty AJAX it's very hard to say we would.

Of course there are no guarantees but it would remove the seeding system being flawed as a reason if we didn't (at the moment I think it is one of the reasons)

Very few teams win away from home in the CL regularly so one defeat away to Ajax should not be blowm out of proportion I think. Its just that its fresh in everyone's minds.

 

[Tony101]

UEFA coefficient is based purely on your performances in Europe. Until ours improve we have no chance of being a top seeded team.
The reason Dortmund were in Pot 4, PSG in 3 etc is because they have not been in euorpean competition in the last 5 years.

Yeah we've been unlucky both times with our groups, but with the team/squad that we have, we certainly should be coming second, at the very very least.

But the whole argument is people here want that to change and want it be rewarded on their domestic league. meaning if City wins the PL 5 times in row and crashes out of the group stages 5 times in row and Cluj wins the Romanian league 5 times in row and reaches 5 Semi finals in the CL, Come 6th year City will be seeded higher. So its a set system instead of a flexible one where you get rewarded for your achievements in Europe

 

[Bunk]

As I pointed out very early on in this thread, the contrast between our group and rags' group demonstrates perfectly how horribly flawed UEFA's current seeding system is. There are no credible arguments in favour of such poorly weighted groups. Cobwebcat's team-for-team individual ranking also reinforces my point.

Simply put, the champions of England, Spain, Germany, Italy, Holland and Portugal should always be kept separate. They are the champions of the finest leagues in world football, this is the champions league, a competition that was established to reward champions, not losers like the rags. Your past performance should be completely irrelevant.

 

[Tony101]

As I pointed out very early on in this thread, the contrast between our group and rags' group demonstrates perfectly how horribly flawed UEFA's current seeding system is. There are no credible arguments in favour of such poorly weighted groups. Cobwebcat's team-for-team individual ranking also reinforces my point.

Simply put, the champions of England, Spain, Germany, Italy, Holland and Portugal should always be kept separate. They are the champions of the finest leagues in world football, this is the champions league, a competition that was established to reward champions, not losers like the rags. Your past performance should be completely irrelevant.

Why are you comparing us to rags in Europe? what have we done to get anywhere near the respect they get? You cant crash out of the group stages twice and cry foul that the groups are too hard. man u won the CL with having bayern and barcelona in their group

 

[adorado30]

It would stop the extreme situations from happening like:

City's Group has 2nd 5th 6th and 24th (Average position 9)

United's Group has 4th 53rd 97th and 154th ( Average position 77)

But we could still get really hard group.

1. City
2.PSG
3. Lille (guess)
4.Nordsjaelland (guess)

Yes, it is an easier group but are you sure we would qualify from such group ? Based on our perfomance in the CL where we cant even beat fuckin all mighty AJAX it's very hard to say we would.

Of course there are no guarantees but it would remove the seeding system being flawed as a reason if we didn't (at the moment I think it is one of the reasons)

Very few teams win away from home in the CL regularly so one defeat away to Ajax should not be blowm out of proportion I think. Its just that its fresh in everyone's minds.

This is not based on one defeat to an average ajax team but to last 2 years where we have been outcoached and outplayed but yet we seek to be put in Pot1.

All this comparison to the rags is bs. I really dont fuckin care what group they have you still have to beat your opponents

As i said earlier, Bate Borisov beat Bayern, Shakhtar Donetsk beat Chelsea, Real lost. There is no "Easy" teams/groups these days.

 

[Cobwebcat]

As I pointed out very early on in this thread, the contrast between our group and rags' group demonstrates perfectly how horribly flawed UEFA's current seeding system is. There are no credible arguments in favour of such poorly weighted groups. Cobwebcat's team-for-team individual ranking also reinforces my point.

Simply put, the champions of England, Spain, Germany, Italy, Holland and Portugal should always be kept separate. They are the champions of the finest leagues in world football, this is the champions league, a competition that was established to reward champions, not losers like the rags. Your past performance should be completely irrelevant.

I only partly agree with this. I don't think winning a top league should be the only criteria either as I think both domestic and european results should count so I'd have both City and United in Pot 1. You could win your league by 20 points or by goal difference and thar should be reflected in the ranking.

The elo ranking is simple...you beat a team you get points you get beat you lose points. It counts all results over a scientifically calculated period with a weighting on more recent games rather than just European games where a win 5 years ago counts as much as a win yesterday with no account taken of the oppostion strength.

 

[Cobwebcat]

But we could still get really hard group.

1. City
2.PSG
3. Lille (guess)
4.Nordsjaelland (guess)

Yes, it is an easier group but are you sure we would qualify from such group ? Based on our perfomance in the CL where we cant even beat fuckin all mighty AJAX it's very hard to say we would.

Of course there are no guarantees but it would remove the seeding system being flawed as a reason if we didn't (at the moment I think it is one of the reasons)

Very few teams win away from home in the CL regularly so one defeat away to Ajax should not be blowm out of proportion I think. Its just that its fresh in everyone's minds.

This is not based on one defeat to an average ajax team but to last 2 years where we have been outcoached and outplayed but yet we seek to be put in Pot1.

All this comparison to the rags is bs. I really dont fuckin care what group they have you still have to beat your opponents

As i said earlier, Bate Borisov beat Bayern, Shakhtar Donetsk beat Chelsea, Real lost. There is no "Easy" teams/groups these days.

The comparison to United was only used as they happen to be in the easiest group while we are in the hardest.

Looking at a data set of 6 games last season (3 of which we won) and 3 this season proves nothing.

The danger is getting too excited with a handfull of wins or suicidal over a handfull of defeats be they in Europe or Domestically.

Have a look at this graph over the last four years:

http://clubelo.com/ManCity/

You are getting upset over the tiny dip at the end....all I'm saying is it needs putting into perspective. Upsets happen in every competition but Chelsea losing to Shakhtar was statistically expected.

 

[Бравый Дератизатор]

As far as I can tell all these rules are designed to do is to ensure that the old guard (the Real Madrids, Barcelonas, Bayern Munichs, Manchester Uniteds and AC Milans) are ensured knockout qualification.

What kind of f****d up ranking system produces a group which has the actual Champions of 3 of the 4 best football leagues in the world?! It could only have been worse if we'd had the Italian champions as well.

How is a team supposed to improve their coefficient and elevate themselves given such logistics? It looks like we're now all but out of this year's CL at the first hurdle again, no doubt we can look forward to next year's CL draw (Barca, Juventus and Schalke I'm guessing) whilst the rags can easily maintain their coefficient against teams I have honestly never even heard of (Cluj?! wtf?!).

stop moaning